My Crohn's and Colitis Blog » Ulcerative Colitis Crohn's » Quackwatch: Homeopathy

Quackwatch: Homeopathy

Question:

I’d love to see this whole thing dropped at this point, but anyone with a pro-homeopathy point of view who feels a need to further defend it at this point, please just post some double-blind studies from an unbiased source (meaning not a website that sells the stuff) rather than starting another pissing match.  Once that’s done, people can basically read what there is on the subject and make an informed decision as to whether they want to try the stuff.

I respectfully submit that I have in no way tried to shove homeopathy down anyone else’s throat, I’ve simply stated that I have used it extensively and that it works very very effectively.  If a person cannot state their confidence in something that they are experienced with, without having to cite "double blind studies from an unbiased source" (the definition of unbiased is a whole issue in itself) THEN WHAT WE’VE GOT HERE  IS A SEVERE RESTRICTION IN WHAT WE’RE ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT!    The pissing starts when someone begins to attack or antagonize another member of the group purposely, because of a difference of opinion. Jan…  

Response:

I respectfully submit that I have in no way tried to shove homeopathy down anyone else’s throat, I’ve simply stated that I have used it extensively and that it works very very effectively.  If a person cannot state their confidence in something that they are experienced with, without having to cite "double blind studies from an unbiased source" (the definition of unbiased is a whole issue in itself) THEN WHAT WE’VE GOT HERE  IS A SEVERE RESTRICTION IN WHAT WE’RE ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT!    The pissing starts when someone begins to attack or antagonize another member of the group purposely, because of a difference of opinion. Jan…  

Of course you’re allowed to say what you said, no one ever said otherwise.  What I said specifically was NO MORE ON THIS THREAD, as this thread has turned into a flamewar where no constructive progress is going to be made anymore without citing such studies. Repeating the same personal effectiveness story on the same thread a short time later certainly wouldn’t add anything to the discussion at this point.  We must move on.   BTW, I did define unbiased very simply as from a source that’s not trying to sell anything.  There are lots of sources of info out there on alternative medicine that present detailed info without trying to sell you stuff, and I have seen homeopathy defended from such unbiased sources over the years.  Even Maurice’s post of MEDLINE studies had one in there where homeopathy appeared to help people.   I don’t see why this should be a problem, it’s very unrestrictive.

Response:

You know what Dave?  You can make your points without name-calling. What you’re doing is as bad as what Maurice is doing in a support group. "If you cannot answer a man’s argument, do not panic.  You can always call him names."- Oscar Wilde

Response:

That was excellent, very informative Maurice.  Now, I’m with paula, I’d love to see this whole thing dropped at this point, but anyone with a pro-homeopathy point of view who feels a need to further defend it at this point, please just post some double-blind studies from an unbiased source (meaning not a website that sells the stuff) rather than starting another pissing match.  Once that’s done, people can basically read what there is on the subject and make an informed decision as to whether they want to try the stuff.

Response:

This kind of nice thoughtful resistance to alternative medicine is fine…but the type of flaming that Maurice does is just plain rude….I don’t do alternative, and I wouldn’t recommend it, but I do NOT and NEVER will tell someone that they are an idiot for trying something…in that Maurice and I differ… Stephanie

Thanks I agree with all and I didn’t want to associate myself with name calling when I said that bit in my earlier post re: Maurice. I didn’t know the topic had deteriorated to that level – what a bummer. Daniel

Response:

I do NOT and NEVER will tell someone that they are an idiot

Ok can we move on now??? Paula

Response:

Did you not hear HeyGenies posts Dan? She has said that for years homeopathic medicine has done wonders for herself and her own family, but she is not one of those ‘quacks’ that poo-poos all western medicine in lieu of HPM. So, your ‘proof’ you speak of below blows right out the door. Also, lets say hypothetically that the medicine really didn’t do anything, but worked as a placebo, i.e. the ‘mind’ convinced itself it was being healed. The end result was what was sought after, so who cares, it worked, the reason for turning to it. One last thing. You post your comments in a calm rational, non antagonizing way. Look back over EVERY one of Maurices posts, watch how he makes curt little ‘picking at you’ comments to incite anger and upset people, he clearly gets off on it, and more importantly, is the most closed minded bastard I’ve ever read (did you know he FIRMLY beleives that there is NO food that causes gas?). Secondly, he’s a sonofabitch, because if anyone disputes his views, he INSTANTLY fires off emails to the sys admins of those peoples ISP’s, lying to them that they are sending him ‘unsolicited’ emails, in a yellowbellied attempt to get them turned off, i.e. CENSORSHIP, the lowest of the low. Do you feel good your ‘backing up’ this man? I wouldn’t want my name associated with this monster even if I DID agree with him simply because of his nasty attempts at controlling others veiwpoints and stirring up unrest in a sensitive group where stress can HOSPITALIZE these people. could a man be any lower? Grundman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t believe the resistance that people have to just read and consider the clear, rational comments that Maurice has worked pretty had to bring to light. I would like to associate myself with his remarks, if he doesn’t mind, because I think we owe it to ourselves and fellow sufferrers of our disease whom, if you’re like me, you feel a sense of comraderie with: you know, the cliche that we’re one big family? Well if you’re my family, then if a sister or brother of mine is getting SCAMMED in my humble but well thought out, educated and researched opinion, then don’t I have an obligation, and a strong desire to speak up? And don’t you have a duty to do the same for me you have a direct experience or a strong opinion backed up by rational arguments that can’t be brushed off by sentimentality, romanticism, plain ignorance or the desperation that is brought on by these diseases that drive us to try nearly anything after long anough suffering–which is exactly what snake oil salemen have ALWAYS preyd upon. As soon as one saleman posts some Ad on here for some tonic we jump all over them. But then when someone wants to saw ‘watch out’ when one of us says they’re voluntarily putting their disease in the hands of an practitioner of an unusual discipline that has been soundly debunked by the accepted medical community and has never been proven to be effective (much less coherent) by the self-same practioners which is exactly upon whom the burden of prof lies, THEY get jumped all over and people come out in droves who want to put faith in the practice. Realize that the field of medicine and weight loss is full of more bogus, psuedo-scientific claims than ANY other field and always has been. Charlatans look for sick people who are willing to try anything out of desperation and they know how to take their time with in depth histories, and physical exams and wonderful bedside manners to make us feel like they’re legit to keep us coming back for more. Look for real studies on Homeopathy that show some evidence of how and if they work and if they can be reliably repeated like ‘real’ medical therapies (ie: anitibiotics for bacterial infection) and see if you can find ANY. Then share it with us. Being that I feel strongly that its a dangerous scam and I care about fellow ibd’ers I feel that I need to share my opinion on this matter and if needed a lot of research info will follow and then, after its is given due consideration, please feel free to go do it anyway. BUT, do me the same favor, please! It would be the some as if I wated to take 150mgs o fprenisone a day for years because it controls  my ibd and NO ONE on this group lifted a finger to warn me that I might be hurting myself. I wont do that in this case. If you thing homeopathy is harmless then think about the possibility that someone with a serious acute illness,infection, caner, etc., foregoes traditional medicine–which would save them–in favor of homeopathic treatment, not to mention more mundane concerns such as money! Daniel "DEFENSIVENESS. It is a common human tendency to take criticism of one’s work personally and respond devensively. Scientists must constantly be aware of this tendency and suppress it, because unchecked defensiveness is the death of scientific inquiry. When a researcher consistently interprets criticism of his or her theories, hypotheses, or data as personal insults, they become suspect. The researcher falls into the trap of considering it a personal conflict and naturally resists the kind of criticism that is absolutely neccessary to test hypotheses. The first strong indication that I had of the problems with cold fusion, back when it still seemed plausible and exciting and everyone was trading speculations about mechanisms, was a letter by one of F&P [Fleischmann and Pons -- whj] accusing all of their critics as attacking them personally."

Response:

This kind of nice thoughtful resistance to alternative medicine is fine…but the type of flaming that Maurice does is just plain rude….I don’t do alternative, and I wouldn’t recommend it, but I do NOT and NEVER will tell someone that they are an idiot for trying something…in that Maurice and I differ… Stephanie

Response:

this stuff".  They’ve been said, now let’s see some backup. Abstracts from Medline will do too.  

Here’s a little of what I found…. 1 UI  - 98090705 AU  - Vickers AJ AU  - Fisher P AU  - Smith C AU  - Wyllie SE AU  - Lewith GT IN  - Division of Public Health and Primary Care, University of Oxford,       Radcliffe Infirmary, United Kingdom. TI  - Homoeopathy for delayed onset muscle soreness: a randomised double       blind placebo controlled trial. SO  - British Journal of Sports Medicine 1997 Dec;31(4):304-7 AB  - OBJECTIVE: To pilot a model for determining whether a homoeopathic       medicine is superior to placebo for delayed onset muscle soreness       (DOMS). DESIGN: Randomised double blind placebo controlled trial.       SETTING: Physiotherapy department of a homoeopathic hospital.       SUBJECTS: Sixty eight healthy volunteers (average age 30; 41% men)       undertook a 10 minute period of bench stepping carrying a small       weight and were randomised to a homoeopathic medicine or placebo.       OUTCOME MEASURES: Mean muscle soreness in the five day period after       the exercise test, symptom free days, maximum soreness score, days       to no soreness, days on medication. RESULTS: The difference between       group means was 0.17 in favour of placebo with 95% confidence       intervals +/- 0.50. Similar results were found for other outcome       measures. CONCLUSION: The study did not find benefit of the       homoeopathic remedy in DOMS. Bench stepping may not be an       appropriate model to evaluate the effects of a treatment on DOMS       because of wide variation between subject soreness scores. 2 UI  - 97147100 AU  - Kainz JT AU  - Kozel G AU  - Haidvogl M AU  - Smolle J IN  - Department of Dermatology, University of Graz, Austria. TI  - Homoeopathic versus placebo therapy of children with warts on the       hands: a randomized, double-blind clinical trial [see comments]. SO  - Dermatology 1996;193(4):318-20 AB  - BACKGROUND: Despite the wide practical application of homoeopathy,       scientific proof of its effectiveness and mechanisms is still       lacking, and sound, placebo-controlled studies are scarce.       OBJECTIVE: The purpose of our study was to evaluate the efficacy of       homoeopathy in a prospective, double-blind randomized trial.       METHODS: 60 children aged 6-12 years with common warts on the back       of the hands were treated either with an individually selected       homoeopathic preparation (n = 30) of at least a 1:1,012 dilution or       with pure placebo in the form of saccharose globuli (n = 30) under       double-blind conditions. The area occupied by warts was measured by       computerized planimetry before and after 8 weeks of treatment.       Reduction of the warty area by at least 50% was considered a       response. RESULTS: There were a total of 16 responders: 9 of 30       patients in the homoeopathic therapy group and 7 of 30 patients in       the placebo group (chi 2 = 0.34, p = 0.56). Total cure of warts       occurred in 5 patients in the treated group and in 1 patient in the       placebo group (chi 2 = 1.46, p = 0.22). CONCLUSION: There was no       apparent difference between the effects of homoeopathic therapy and       placebo in children with common warts under the conditions of this       study. 3 UI  - 97395777 AU  - Whitmarsh TE AU  - Coleston-Shields DM AU  - Steiner TJ IN  - Princess Margaret Migraine Clinic, Charing Cross Hospital, London,       UK. TI  - Double-blind randomized placebo-controlled study of homoeopathic       prophylaxis of migraine. SO  - Cephalalgia 1997 Aug;17(5):600-4 AB  - Homoeopathic remedies for migraine are widely available over the       counter, statutorily offered by the national health service in the       UK, and apparently popular with patients. Do they work? Sixty-three       outpatients with migraine with or without aura by IHS criteria       entered a 4-month randomized placebo-controlled, double-blind       parallel-groups trial of individualized homoeopathic prophylaxis,       the first month being baseline with all patients on placebo. Three       patients (4.8%) dropped out, leaving 30 in each treatment group.       There were chance differences in attack frequency and severity       between the groups at baseline (attacks were more frequent but less       severe in the placebo group). Both groups improved on therapy, but       neither to a great extent on the primary outcome measure of attack       frequency (verum: -19%; placebo: -16%). Reduction was mostly in mild       attacks on placebo, more in moderate and severe attacks on       homoeopathy. Few adverse events were reported. Overall, there was no       significant benefit over placebo of homoeopathic treatment. The       course of change differed between groups, and suggested that       improvement reversed in the last month of treatment on placebo. On       this evidence we cannot recommend homoeopathy for migraine       prophylaxis, but cannot conclude that it is without effect. RN  - 0 (Alkaloids) RN  - 0 (Enzyme Inhibitors) RN  - 2447-54-3 (sanguinarine) RN  - 57-24-9 (Strychnine) 4 UI  - 97221388 AU  - Hart O AU  - Mullee MA AU  - Lewith G AU  - Miller J IN  - Department of Medicine, University of Southampton, England. TI  - Double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial of       homoeopathic arnica C30 for pain and infection after total abdominal       hysterectomy [see comments]. SO  - Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine 1997 Feb;90(2):73-8 AB  - Homoeopathic potencies of arnica have been used for many years to       aid postoperative recovery. The effects of arnica C30 on pain and       postoperative recovery after total abdominal hysterectomy were       evaluated in a double-blind, randomized, controlled study. Of 93       women entered into the study, 20 did not complete protocol       treatment: nine were excluded because they failed to comply with the       protocol, nine had their operations cancelled or changed within 24 h       and two had to be withdrawn because of the recurrence of previously       chronic painful conditions. Those who did not complete protocol       treatment were equally divided between the arnica (nine patients)       and placebo groups (11 patients). 73 patients completed the study,       of whom 35 received placebo and 38 received arnica C30. The placebo       group had a greater median age and the arnica group had slightly       longer operations; nevertheless, no significant difference between       the two groups could be demonstrated. We conclude that arnica in       homoeopathic potency had no effect on postoperative recovery in the       context of our study. RN  - 0 (Analgesics) 5 UI  - 95337913 AU  - Lokken P AU  - Straumsheim PA AU  - Tveiten D AU  - Skjelbred P AU  - Borchgrevink CF IN  - Section of Dental Pharmacology and Pharmacotherapeutics, University       of Oslo, Norway. TI  - Effect of homoeopathy on pain and other events after acute trauma:       placebo controlled trial with bilateral oral surgery [see comments]. SO  - BMJ 1995 Jun 3;310(6992):1439-42 AB  - OBJECTIVE–To examine whether homoeopathy has any effect on pain and       other inflammatory events after surgery. DESIGN–Randomised double       blind, placebo controlled crossover trial with "identical" oral       surgical procedures performed on two separate occasions in 24       patients. INTERVENTIONS–Treatment started 3 hours after surgery       with either homoeopathy or placebo. MAIN OUTCOME       MEASURES–Postoperative pain and preference for postoperative course       assessed by patients on visual analogue scales. Measurements of       postoperative swelling and reduction in ability to open mouth.       Assessment of bleeding after surgery. RESULTS–Pain after surgery       was essentially the same whether treated with homoeopathy or       placebo. Postoperative swelling was not significantly affected by       homoeopathy, but treatment tended to give less reduction in ability       to open mouth. No noticeable difference was seen in postoperative       bleeding, side effects, or complaints. Thirteen of the 24 patients       preferred the postoperative course with placebo. CONCLUSIONS–No       positive evidence was found for efficacy of homoeopathic treatment       on pain and other inflammatory events after an acute soft tissue and       bone injury inflicted by a surgical intervention. Differences in the       order of 30% to 40% would have been needed to show significant       effects. RN  - 0 (Placebos) — http://www.fluxsoft.com/     ftp://ftp.fluxsoft.com

Response:

OY.  Guys, this is a support group.  It’s great to have discussions, even heated discussions on various treatment possibilities, provided they’re A) productive, B)do not involve flaming (such as name-calling) or flamebaiting. A and B violate this group’s charter and netequeitte (funny, I used to know how to spell that) for support groups in general and people on each side of the homeopathy brouhaha have been violating with abandon.  So, enough.  Opinions have been stated and lines in the sand have been drawn.  The only productive way to continue with this discussion at this point is for you guys to start publishing the text of doubleblind, preferably large, studies regarding homeopathy with sources cited.  I know these exist, I’ve seen them over the years. Homeopathy has been around for decades and thus has been well studied. No more, "I know this is dreck, so why doesn’t everyone else" and no more "My aunt, my cousin and even my dog have been instantly cured with this stuff".  They’ve been said, now let’s see some backup. Abstracts from Medline will do too.   And now, for your viewing pleasure, the newsgroup charter: What is Alt.support.crohns-colitis? Alt.support.crohns-colitis was created in early 1994 as a forum where people suffering from ulcerative colitis, Crohn’s Disease, and irritable bowel syndrome can share their everyday struggles with these illnesses, as well as discuss medicines, treatments, surgery, diet, health care providers, related illnesses, and anything else anyone can think of that relates to these diseases.  In other words, this is the online equivalent of a support group, which means that no question is stupid and no condition embarrassing here.  It also means we’re all here to help each other out, so please be nice, be polite, and no flaming. Discussions of all types of medicine- conventional and alternative, Western and Eastern, your Aunt Harriet’s home remedies, whatever- are welcome here; however, any person discussing a potential remedy which he or she also sells must explicitly begin the "Subject" header of their post with the word "AD" or "ADVERTISEMENT" in all caps, regardless of whether or not they profit from such sales.  Spamming is expressly forbidden as violating the rules of netiquette as well as those of this newsgroup.  Finally, please keep in mind that no one knows what causes these illnesses, no one’s come up with a cure, and we need all the help we can get.

Response:

I can’t believe the resistance that people have to just read and consider the clear, rational comments that Maurice has worked pretty had to bring to light. I would like to associate myself with his remarks, if he doesn’t mind, because I think we owe it to ourselves and fellow sufferrers of our disease whom, if you’re like me, you feel a sense of comraderie with: you know, the cliche that we’re one big family? Well if you’re my family, then if a sister or brother of mine is getting SCAMMED in my humble but well thought out, educated and researched opinion, then don’t I have an obligation, and a strong desire to speak up? And don’t you have a duty to do the same for me you have a direct experience or a strong opinion backed up by rational arguments that can’t be brushed off by sentimentality, romanticism, plain ignorance or the desperation that is brought on by these diseases that drive us to try nearly anything after long anough suffering–which is exactly what snake oil salemen have ALWAYS preyd upon. As soon as one saleman posts some Ad on here for some tonic we jump all over them. But then when someone wants to saw ‘watch out’ when one of us says they’re voluntarily putting their disease in the hands of an practitioner of an unusual discipline that has been soundly debunked by the accepted medical community and has never been proven to be effective (much less coherent) by the self-same practioners which is exactly upon whom the burden of prof lies, THEY get jumped all over and people come out in droves who want to put faith in the practice. Realize that the field of medicine and weight loss is full of more bogus, psuedo-scientific claims than ANY other field and always has been.   Charlatans look for sick people who are willing to try anything out of desperation and they know how to take their time with in depth histories, and physical exams and wonderful bedside manners to make us feel like they’re legit to keep us coming back for more. Look for real studies on Homeopathy that show some evidence of how and if they work and if they can be reliably repeated like ‘real’ medical therapies (ie: anitibiotics for bacterial infection) and see if you can find ANY. Then share it with us. Being that I feel strongly that its a dangerous scam and I care about fellow ibd’ers I feel that I need to share my opinion on this matter and if needed a lot of research info will follow and then, after its is given due consideration, please feel free to go do it anyway. BUT, do me the same favor, please! It would be the some as if I wated to take 150mgs o fprenisone a day for years because it controls  my ibd and NO ONE on this group lifted a finger to warn me that I might be hurting myself. I wont do that in this case. If you thing homeopathy is harmless then think about the possibility that someone with a serious acute illness,infection, caner, etc., foregoes traditional medicine–which would save them–in favor of homeopathic treatment, not to mention more mundane concerns such as money! Daniel "DEFENSIVENESS. It is a common human tendency to take criticism of one’s work personally and respond devensively. Scientists must constantly be aware of this tendency and suppress it, because unchecked defensiveness is the death of scientific inquiry. When a researcher consistently interprets criticism of his or her theories, hypotheses, or data as personal insults, they become suspect. The researcher falls into the trap of considering it a personal conflict and naturally resists the kind of criticism that is absolutely neccessary to test hypotheses. The first strong indication that I had of the problems with cold fusion, back when it still seemed plausible and exciting and everyone was trading speculations about mechanisms, was a letter by one of F&P [Fleischmann and Pons -- whj] accusing all of their critics as attacking them personally."

Response:

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