Question:

Went to see an ENT today and he said I have inflamed nasal polyps that are the cause of my suffering. I go through a family size box of tissues in less than a week.  My question for those with experience is how well does Methylprednisolone 21 day pak work?  That’s what he prescribed.  Took the first 6 today and I think I am feeling relief already.  Also what stops them from becoming inflamed again?  It doesn’t make much sense to take this drug if they are just going to get inflamed again as soon as I am done with the doseage.  Any advice is greatly apprieciated!!! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

I took Methylprednisolone for 1 week and, besides some bad side effects, it was effective at decreasing my sinus inflammation. I can’t really say much more because I also had sinus surgery shortly after since they were too swelled shut for just the Methylprednisolone to cure it. You have a good question that I’ve also wanted to know:

Also what stops them from becoming inflamed again?  It doesn’t make much sense to take this drug if they are just going to get inflamed again as soon as I am done with the doseage.

Good luck. BTW: MY side effects were nervousness and insomnia. Brian

Response:

On Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:34:51 GMT, meow5…@my-deja.com wrote:

Went to see an ENT today and he said I have inflamed nasal polyps that are the cause of my suffering. I go through a family size box of tissues in less than a week.  My question for those with experience is how well does Methylprednisolone 21 day pak work?  That’s what he prescribed.  Took the first 6 today and I think I am feeling relief already.  Also what stops them from becoming inflamed again?  It doesn’t make much sense to take this drug if they are just going to get inflamed again as soon as I am done with the doseage.  Any advice is greatly apprieciated!!!

After you get them down with the oral steroid, your doctor can give you a prescription for nasal steroid spray (such as Nasonex of Flonase or ….) . This should help prevent future polyps and can be taken indefinitely.   It has essentially no side effects. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

I’m not sure what methylprednisone 21 is.  I have polyps.  I’ve had two surgeries to remove them,  but each time they grew back in a matter of months.  I irrigate daily, but some days my nose is so stuffy that nothing seems to get in.  I can’t take aspirin or ibuprofin, and I know what you mean by going thru a box of kleenex a week.  I feel generaly tired and apathetic all the time.  Holidays are tough, because everyone else can smell the cookies baking and will be able to taste the Christmas dinner.    Twice a year my ENT prescribes a 9 day course of prednisone, and then I feel great.  My head is clear, I’m able to smell,  I hardly look at a box of kleenex .  I know the side effects can be terrible, but sometimes I wish I could just stay on it.  I’ve been on Rhinocort for five years. Will I be on it for the rest of my life with surgery every 2 or 3 years?   Oh well, enough whining.  Maybe someday they’ll come up with a substitute for prednisone that doesn’t include the side effects.  Maybe there’s a group somewhere for people with polyps.  I wish you good luck with yours.  The prednisone I take is very helpful, although the effects are short-term.  Still it’s better than nothing.  I’d like to know how things go for you.

Response:

In article <23476-3A3F57F…@storefull-613.iap.bryant.webtv.net

,

  ladyma…@webtv.net (terese cascio) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I’m not sure what methylprednisone 21 is.  I have polyps.  I’ve had

two

surgeries to remove them,  but each time they grew back in a matter of months.  I irrigate daily, but some days my nose is so stuffy that nothing seems to get in.  I can’t take aspirin or ibuprofin, and I

know

what you mean by going thru a box of kleenex a week.  I feel generaly tired and apathetic all the time.  Holidays are tough, because

everyone

else can smell the cookies baking and will be able to taste the Christmas dinner.  Twice a year my ENT prescribes a 9 day course of prednisone, and then

I

feel great.  My head is clear, I’m able to smell,  I hardly look at a box of kleenex .  I know the side effects can be terrible, but

sometimes

I wish I could just stay on it.  I’ve been on Rhinocort for five

years.

Will I be on it for the rest of my life with surgery every 2 or 3

years?

Oh well, enough whining.  Maybe someday they’ll come up with a substitute for prednisone that doesn’t include the side effects.

Maybe

there’s a group somewhere for people with polyps.  I wish you good

luck

with yours.  The prednisone I take is very helpful, although the

effects

are short-term.  Still it’s better than nothing.  I’d like to know how things go for you.

Just letting you know that you are not alone; prednisone helps me immensely, wish I could take it all the time.  However, you should know that the long term effects of prednisone when taken regularly and for a long period of time can be very, very bad.  I’m hoping they can find a ‘new-age’ prednisone with all the benefits but none of the downsides. Until then… its irrigation, an occasional surgery, and soft Kleenex. But, things could be worse.  At least we have a treatment for the effect; maybe tomorrow we will have a treatment for the cause. — "Those are my principles.  And if you don’t like those,  I have others." —Grouch Marx Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

I feel for you terese, your situation sounds a lot like mine. Prednisone is the only thing that has allowed me to breathe in the past.  I really don’t get any side effects (unless you consider unobstructed breathing) from it except occasional muscle cramps.  I would pay almost anything to smell our christmas tree or any other thing for that matter.  I just last week started using Breathe ease in a waterpik. So far there really hasn’t been much improvement but it has only been a week. "terese cascio" <ladyma…@webtv.net

wrote in message

news:23476-3A3F57FD-1@storefull-613.iap.bryant.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I’m not sure what methylprednisone 21 is.  I have polyps.  I’ve had two surgeries to remove them,  but each time they grew back in a matter of months.  I irrigate daily, but some days my nose is so stuffy that nothing seems to get in.  I can’t take aspirin or ibuprofin, and I know what you mean by going thru a box of kleenex a week.  I feel generaly tired and apathetic all the time.  Holidays are tough, because everyone else can smell the cookies baking and will be able to taste the Christmas dinner.  Twice a year my ENT prescribes a 9 day course of prednisone, and then I feel great.  My head is clear, I’m able to smell,  I hardly look at a box of kleenex .  I know the side effects can be terrible, but sometimes I wish I could just stay on it.  I’ve been on Rhinocort for five years. Will I be on it for the rest of my life with surgery every 2 or 3 years? Oh well, enough whining.  Maybe someday they’ll come up with a substitute for prednisone that doesn’t include the side effects.  Maybe there’s a group somewhere for people with polyps.  I wish you good luck with yours.  The prednisone I take is very helpful, although the effects are short-term.  Still it’s better than nothing.  I’d like to know how things go for you.

Response:

On Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:48:08 GMT, "Wilson" <tyc…@nospam.netzero.net

wrote: I feel for you terese, your situation sounds a lot like mine. Prednisone is the only thing that has allowed me to breathe in the past.  I really don’t get any side effects (unless you consider unobstructed breathing) from it except occasional muscle cramps.  

Prednisone unfortunately cannot  be taken on a long-term basis because of problems like cateracts and other even worse metabolic problems that only show up in the longer-term.    For example, cataracts can result, based on long-term *cumulative* dose (not on the dose being taken at any one time). However, nasal steroids are ok for long-term use and can help control them. Also avoid aspirin (Tylenol is ok). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I would pay almost anything to smell our christmas tree or any other thing for that matter.  I just last week started using Breathe ease in a waterpik. So far there really hasn’t been much improvement but it has only been a week.

Response:

Taking prednisone or Medrol always helps me immensely. My nose usually stays clear for several months after taking them, but the polyps always come back. I am now going to have surgery. I had surgery once before 15 years ago, and it didn’t help a bit, but I’m willing to try it again since cortisone makes my blood pressure go sky high. Every doctor I’ve gone to prescibes the steroid sprays, but as far as I can tell they are worthless; I don’t think they go up high enough. Neverthless, I am taking Nasalcort now since my doctor prescribed it. I’ll probably have the surgery some time in February.  Sue Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <91ssn1$vf…@nnrp1.deja.com

, SettledSue

<settled…@aol.com

wrote: Taking prednisone or Medrol always helps me immensely. My nose usually stays clear for several months after taking them, but the polyps always come back. I am now going to have surgery. I had surgery once before 15 years ago, and it didn’t help a bit, but I’m willing to try it again since cortisone makes my blood pressure go sky high. Every doctor I’ve gone to prescibes the steroid sprays, but as far as I can tell they are worthless; I don’t think they go up high enough. Neverthless, I am taking Nasalcort now since my doctor prescribed it. I’ll probably have the surgery some time in February.  Sue Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

The optimal time to use the nasal steroid sprays is when they can "go up high enough." It is well to start them just after a burst of oral steroids, and your doctor might want to start you on one of them as soon as you are healed from your polypectomy, to prevent recurrence of the polyps.   Larry —

Response:

Prednisone always helped me too. I took so much of it it aggravated my osteoporosis. I had 3 surgeries and did NOT want to have more. I was upset and didn’t know what to do. This was back in Nov. of ‘98. Then I read about SINGULAIR. There is a  medication available for asthma sufferers called Singulair (Merck) that has proven very effective in reducing swelling (stuffiness) and inflammation and excess mucus secretions in the airways by acting as a leukotriene inhibitor. I have been on it since November ‘98.  I do not have Asthma or allergies but the allergist who follows me said it was worth a try when I asked her if I could try it. I really think it makes a diffeence. No side effects that I am aware of. She thought Singulair might help me because it takes down inflammation. She had some samples and she gave me enough pills for a 2 week trial but I actually noticed a difference after only 2 days. After 2 weeks, I called her & said the medication was really helping me and she phoned in an Rx for the Singulair for me. My pharmacy plan did not want to pay for it because I did not have a diagnosis of asthma My allergist went to bat for me and she was able to obtain HMO pharmacy plan approval for me based on the fact that prednisone helped me previously and I was doing every other self-help measure that I could do for my sinus problems including irrigation, guaifenesin, clean diet etc. I have been on the Singulair since Nov ‘98 and I DO think it helps keep sinuses open. The 3 colds I had since Nov 98 did NOT evolve into sinus infections part of the reason may be because of SINGULAIR and part may be due to the fact that when I had these colds with yellow mucus I increased the number of nasal irrigations I did each day (from 2 to 5) and I used BETADINE in at least 3 of them Nestora Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

Thanks, everyone, for the encouraging posts!  It’s good to know that there are people who can really understand what’s it’s like to not be able to breathe easily or smell anything.  (I suppose it’s nice when it’s time to clean out the cat box)  I wonder if I should ask my doctor about singulair?  I have been tested for allergies (twice) and asthma, but I don’t have either.   I’ll  try anything. At least I don’t have as many sinus infections as I used to, and I usually can get enough air in at night to not have to breathe thru my mouth.  If I could smell I’d be a happy camper.  Of course, a fully open nostril (or two) would be nice…

Response:

Can I add my opinion on the prednisolone subject? For about10yrs, a dose of, up to 30mg of prednisolone per day, kept my asthma at bay and did not appear to do any obvious damage. I was weaned off oral steroids 15 years ago and given a steroid spray replacement.   My asthma is now well controlled. I have also been treated for years with nasal steroid sprays/nasules and had several polyp removal ops.  During the period of asthma prescribed prednisolone, I had no polyp problems and my quality of life improved immeasurably. Following endoscopic sinus surgery two years ago and umteen courses of antibiotics, the infection will not clear.   I have been diagnosed as having Samter Triad Syndrome and, since a recent scan has shown my sinuses to be as bad as ever, must now discuss with my GP whether I should have more surgery, or go back on oral steroids. He is not advising a return to oral steroids, but my experience has not been bad, and I tend to favour a few good years, rather than a lifetime of misery. On that dreary note, I will wish you all a happy, (and healthy), New Year. David. ("Wilson" <tyc…@nospam.netzero.net

wrote in message

news:Y3f06.50947$g6.21608607@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I feel for you terese, your situation sounds a lot like mine. Prednisone

is

the only thing that has allowed me to breathe in the past.  I really don’t get any side effects (unless you consider unobstructed breathing) from it except occasional muscle cramps.  I would pay almost anything to smell our christmas tree or any other thing for that matter.  I just last week

started > using Breathe ease in a waterpik. So far there really hasn’t been much > improvement but it has only been a week. > "terese cascio" <ladyma…@webtv.net

wrote in message

> news:23476-3A3F57FD-1@storefull-613.iap.bryant.webtv.net… > > I’m not sure what methylprednisone 21 is.  I have polyps.  I’ve had two > > surgeries to remove them,  but each time they grew back in a matter of > > months.  I irrigate daily, but some days my nose is so stuffy that > > nothing seems to get in.  I can’t take aspirin or ibuprofin, and I know > > what you mean by going thru a box of kleenex a week.  I feel generaly > > tired and apathetic all the time.  Holidays are tough, because everyone > > else can smell the cookies baking and will be able to taste the > > Christmas dinner. > >  Twice a year my ENT prescribes a 9 day course of prednisone, and then I > > feel great.  My head is clear, I’m able to smell,  I hardly look at a > > box of kleenex .  I know the side effects can be terrible, but sometimes > > I wish I could just stay on it.  I’ve been on Rhinocort for five years. > > Will I be on it for the rest of my life with surgery every 2 or 3 years? > > Oh well, enough whining.  Maybe someday they’ll come up with a > > substitute for prednisone that doesn’t include the side effects.  Maybe > > there’s a group somewhere for people with polyps.  I wish you good luck > > with yours.  The prednisone I take is very helpful, although the effects > > are short-term.  Still it’s better than nothing.  I’d like to know how > > things go for you.

Response:

In article <3a4f8…@news.telinco.net

, "David Belbin"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<D.Bel…@currantbun.com

wrote: Can I add my opinion on the prednisolone subject? For about10yrs, a dose of, up to 30mg of prednisolone per day, kept my asthma at bay and did not appear to do any obvious damage. I was weaned off oral steroids 15 years ago and given a steroid spray replacement.   My asthma is now well controlled. I have also been treated for years with nasal steroid sprays/nasules and had several polyp removal ops.  During the period of asthma prescribed prednisolone, I had no polyp problems and my quality of life improved immeasurably. Following endoscopic sinus surgery two years ago and umteen courses of antibiotics, the infection will not clear.   I have been diagnosed as having Samter Triad Syndrome and, since a recent scan has shown my sinuses to be as bad as ever, must now discuss with my GP whether I should have more surgery, or go back on oral steroids. He is not advising a return to oral steroids, but my experience has not been bad, and I tend to favour a few good years, rather than a lifetime of misery. On that dreary note, I will wish you all a happy, (and healthy), New Year. David.

What is the lowest daily dose on which you were able to maintain comfort for at least a number of months? Are you still using nasal steroids daily?     Larry — To get random signatures put text files into a folder called

Question:

Well I figure after my first emergency room /hospital stay, it’s time for me to stop lurking, which I had been doing for about a month and join right in. I was diagnosed with Asthma at the end of August after emergency room visit thinking I was having a heart attack. The symptoms you all know, SOB, tightness in chest, etc. Well after keeping me overnight, suprise you have Asthma. So the dr. gives me flovent and serevent and albuterol for emergency and sinulair and tells me I’ll be fine. I tell him I also have Hypertrophic Cardiomyapthy and sleep apnea. Also I work in a very dusty environment. After a short time I get worse. He gives me brethine and tells me I have sinusitis and gives me antiboiodics. Next my sleep goes in the crapper so I have a new sleep study and need the pressure on my cpap raised. OK so now I can sleep, but not breathe. Finally, after not being at work for a week and feeling worse I end up in emergency room, where I am treated with steroids and nebulizer. They admit me overnight because my cardiac enzymes are elevated. Then it’s "discovered" that most of the meds I have been given for my Asthma have made my heart worse and most of my problems are med caused. I guess I feel mostly to blame for this because I did not check, but I did mention conditions to Asthma and cardiology docs. I am now out of hosp after 4 days but still do not feel real well. They tell me it will take time. Sorry this was so long, lot’s of frustration build up. Thanks for being out there and letting me a part of this.  Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well I figure after my first emergency room /hospital stay, it’s time for me to stop lurking, which I had been doing for about a month and join right in. I was diagnosed with Asthma at the end of August after emergency room visit thinking I was having a heart attack. The symptoms you all know, SOB, tightness in chest, etc. Well after keeping me overnight, suprise you have Asthma. So the dr. gives me flovent and serevent and albuterol for emergency and sinulair and tells me I’ll be fine. I tell him I also have Hypertrophic Cardiomyapthy and sleep apnea. Also I work in a very dusty environment. After a short time I get worse. He gives me brethine and tells me I have sinusitis and gives me antiboiodics. Next my sleep goes in the crapper so I have a new sleep study and need the pressure on my cpap raised. OK so now I can sleep, but not breathe. Finally, after not being at work for a week and feeling worse I end up in emergency room, where I am treated with steroids and nebulizer. They admit me overnight because my cardiac enzymes are elevated. Then it’s "discovered" that most of the meds I have been given for my Asthma have made my heart worse and most of my problems are med caused. I guess I feel mostly to blame for this because I did not check, but I did mention conditions to Asthma and cardiology docs. I am now out of hosp after 4 days but still do not feel real well. They tell me it will take time. Sorry this was so long, lot’s of frustration build up. Thanks for being out there and letting me a part of this.  Jeff

Link on hypertrophic cardiomyopathy: http://www.cardiomyopathy.org/content/04__hypertrophic_cardiomyopathy… Excerpt: "Symptoms may include: Shortness of breath Exercise capacity may be limited by breathlessness and fatigue.  Most individuals experience only mild exercise limitation, but occasionally limitation is severe and a minority may have shortness of breath at rest. Chest pain Chest pain (sometimes called angina) is a common symptom. It is  usually brought on by exertion and relieved by rest, but pain may occur at rest or during sleep and may persist. The cause of the  pain is thought to be insufficient oxygen supply to the myocardium. In Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy, the main coronary  arteries are usually normal, but the greatly thickened muscle  demands an increased oxygen supply which cannot be met in some circumstances. Palpitation People may occasionally feel an extra beat or a skipped  beat but this is usually normal. Sometimes, however, an  awareness of the heart beating does suggest an irregular heart rhythm.  In this case, palpitation may start suddenly, appear to  be very fast and may be associated with sweating or light-headedness. The cause  of such episodes should be determined and treated. Light-headedness and blackouts Persons with the condition may experience light-headedness, dizziness and, more seriously,  blackouts. Episodes may occur in association with exercise, with palpitation, or without  any apparent provocation. The reasons for these episodes  are not always clear. They may be due to an irregularity  of the heart beat, or a fall in blood pressure. Episodes  of light-headedness and certainly a blackout should be reported to one’s doctor and investigated." Discussion–Asthma is diagnosed using lung function tests. The symptoms you mention are also symptoms of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, so diagnosis of asthma by a pulmonologist would be advisable. Asthma symptoms you didn’t mention include either wheezing or coughing. If asthma drugs help, this would tend to confirm an asthma diagnosis. Ellis

Response:

Another triumph for safe and effective modern medicine. My hopes for a speedy recovery. Good luck.

Response:

Question:

Your problem with breathing  sounds like what I had in July.  Started with severe soar throat. Peak flow  in red, 150 !.  Wanted to send me home from ER. Had terrible pain in chest when coughed.  Finally had neb treatments every 1/2 hr for 5 hrs.  Yes I said every 1/2 hr for 5 hours.  Everytime they took me off oxygen I had an attack.  More neb treatments.  Finally decided I had a virus. Spent 6 days in hosp. on oxygen – now 2 1/2 mos later, I still have a virus , low grade temp. and diereah.  Cleared up cough and wheezing.  On 15 meds !!!!!!!

Response:

You have got to be kidding.  None of the doctors in you area approve of home nebulizers?  What do they do to treat infants and small children?  When my asthma is really bad the nebulizer is the only thing that keeps me out of the hospital.  Cause the propellants in the inhalers are a problem. — Jo Firey (‘     <’) (v)     (v) ^^       ^^ "You don’t have to attend every argument you’re invited to."    _^..^<_      meow….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, do you have your own nebulizer?  If not you should ask your doctor for a prescription. Nada…dr’s in my area don’t like home use of nebulizer’s lynn Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song, a medly of

extemporanea; and love is a – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thing that can never go wrong; and I am Marie of Roumania. ~Dorothy Parker

Response:

BTW, do you have your own nebulizer?  If not you should ask your doctor for a prescription.  

Nada…dr’s in my area don’t like home use of nebulizer’s lynn Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song, a medly of extemporanea; and love is a thing that can never go wrong; and I am Marie of Roumania. ~Dorothy Parker

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The basic rule of thumb is: If you are wondering about if you need to go to the ER – you need to go.   thanks…I just have this thing about going, don’t wanna seem like I’m faking it…have no idea why I feel that way..cause I do have defiante diagnosis of asthma doesn’t help last I went because the peak flow meter showed me in the red, but I hadn’t had an asthma attack, yet they did give a nebulazer trmnt..but the ER doctor didnt understand why i was there without having an asthma attack gee & thought prevenative med was the way

If you told the doctor that you were in (and remaining) in your ‘red’ zone – then he was clueless. BTW, do you have your own nebulizer?  If not you should ask your doctor for a prescription.   "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off."    General Colin Powell

Response:

The basic rule of thumb is: If you are wondering about if you need to go to the ER – you need to go.  

thanks…I just have this thing about going, don’t wanna seem like I’m faking it…have no idea why I feel that way..cause I do have defiante diagnosis of asthma doesn’t help last I went because the peak flow meter showed me in the red, but I hadn’t had an asthma attack, yet they did give a nebulazer trmnt..but the ER doctor didnt understand why i was there without having an asthma attack gee & thought prevenative med was the way ensoul Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song, a medly of extemporanea; and love is a thing that can never go wrong; and I am Marie of Roumania. ~Dorothy Parker

Response:

First the background info: (you lucky people) I’ve been sick it really has me laid up..looked & acted like strep throat, but it wasn’t. Last Friday I called to get the results I told the nurse I’ve been coughing up nasties, given that I have asthma and get bronchitis at least once a year (I don’t smoke), I wasn’t too happy with her telling me the ‘ol take aspirin & gargle with salt water routine, like I don’t know that having raised two daughters (kids have a way of making you become Dr. Mom)!  I’ve just gotten sicker & sicker, horrible sore throat pain, been using my Tylenol w/codine for it, very sore swollen glands, nasty headaches, stuffy runny nose, a nasty cough.  So I by passed her, saw the pulmonologist yesterday, I see when my asthma gets bad.  I dislike the man he’s rude & abrupt but, he’s very aggressive & successful when it comes to treating my asthma.  He puts me a short burst of predisone (for a week) and an anitbiotic Yesterday I was put back on predisone, usually within hours I can see/feel a difference, not this time though.  I was up until 8am, cause every time I lied down I had extreme shortness of breath & very loud wheezing…if I sat up the shortness of breath went away, but the wheezing didn’t, so on top of being sick I;m exhausted. I ended up going to back to the dr. today, had nebulizer treatment and an injection of predisone.  I hoping like hell I won’t have a repeat of last night, I asked him if I should have gone to hospital for it & he said no, not unless I was having trouble breathing…hell w/that if it happens again I’m going, not gonna have another night like that!   So when I tell my doctor how severe my asthma is when I lie down, the nurse practitioner says, "Than don’t lie down."  I’ve always hated this expression, but it truly applies her, DUH!  And what about sleep! I’m not happy with my doctors, not at all!  I’m still wheezing, after have a nebulizer trmnt and an injection of predisone and Ventolin is doing Ok, this isn’t all rambling, I do have an actual question…if I get into the same problem as last night, should I go to hospital ER? ensoul Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song, a medly of extemporanea; and love is a thing that can never go wrong; and I am Marie of Roumania. ~Dorothy Parker

Response:

I’m not happy with my doctors, not at all!  I’m still wheezing, after have a nebulizer trmnt and an injection of predisone and Ventolin is doing Ok, this isn’t all rambling, I do have an actual question…if I get into the same problem as last night, should I go to hospital ER?

The basic rule of thumb is: If you are wondering about if you need to go to the ER – you need to go.   "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off."    General Colin Powell

Response:

Question:

Some researchers have taken the good dirt idea a little farther.  I read an article in Science News sometime within the past year where people with intestinal problems were put in a double blind trial where the active treatment was a glass of water with live hook worms in it.  The hypothesis was that we had evolved playing host to hook worms and that eliminating them from our digestive systems was causing a problem. The treatment proved effective. Prosit (Here’s to your health), Craig – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——Original Message—– From: SYLV77 <syl…@AOL.COM

To: MSLIS…@TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL <MSLIS…@TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL

Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 12:19 PM Subject: Re: OT: Allergy Epidemic (autoimmune-related) ><< "Something about the Western style of living has given rise to more >allergies,"  >

>IMHO, this "something" is all the chemicals we are living with. >Maybe "dirty" living is beneficial because you wouldn’t be using hazardous >chemicals to clean everything.  The people in the areas cited in this article

are probably poor and can’t afford the "modern" cleaning products and

personal

care products with all the chemicals. Just a thought. . . Sylvia

Response:

YUKK!!!  Even I draw the line at that!!  Anyone desperate enough to try it?   Carmel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Craig Garrison wrote:

Some researchers have taken the good dirt idea a little farther.  I read an article in Science News sometime within the past year where people with intestinal problems were put in a double blind trial where the active treatment was a glass of water with live hook worms in it.  The hypothesis was that we had evolved playing host to hook worms and that eliminating them from our digestive systems was causing a problem. The treatment proved effective. Prosit (Here’s to your health), Craig —–Original Message—– From: SYLV77 <syl…@AOL.COM To: MSLIS…@TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL <MSLIS…@TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 12:19 PM Subject: Re: OT: Allergy Epidemic (autoimmune-related) << "Something about the Western style of living has given rise to more allergies,"   IMHO, this "something" is all the chemicals we are living with. Maybe "dirty" living is beneficial because you wouldn’t be using hazardous chemicals to clean everything.  The people in the areas cited in this article are probably poor and can’t afford the "modern" cleaning products and personal care products with all the chemicals. Just a thought. . . Sylvia

— " Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel.   Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself." www.cyberwizards.com.au/~carmel www.cyberwizards.com.au/~jaragun

Response:

In article <006201bfbf77$33c00960$49d542ce@oemcomputer

,

  cga…@MASTNET.NET (Craig Garrison) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Some researchers have taken the good dirt idea a little farther.  I read an article in Science News sometime within the past year where people with intestinal problems were put in a double blind trial where the active treatment was a glass of water with live hook worms in it.  The hypothesis was that we had evolved playing host to hook worms and that eliminating them from our digestive systems was causing a problem. The treatment proved effective. Prosit (Here’s to your health), Craig —–Original Message—– From: SYLV77 <syl…@AOL.COM To: MSLIS…@TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL <MSLIS…@TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 12:19 PM Subject: Re: OT: Allergy Epidemic (autoimmune-related) << "Something about the Western style of living has given rise to more allergies,"   IMHO, this "something" is all the chemicals we are living with. Maybe "dirty" living is beneficial because you wouldn’t be using hazardous chemicals to clean everything.  The people in the areas cited in this article are probably poor and can’t afford the "modern" cleaning products and personal care products with all the chemicals. Just a thought. . . Sylvia Good thnkin, Sylvia…

Actually both. The diagnosis of Asthma as a health affliction has increased by 500% since 1970. Thats a lot of numbers for not so many years. The best I get to this mail thing is every third day or so… ; ;  Yes I got it and I understand that we are waiting for confirmation (?) Thats o.k. cause I am moving at the current time. ; ;  Moving to an environment with much cleaner air. ; ;  I hope to be relocated by mid-June but I am also curious and anxious about the effectiveness of increasing the production of Regulatory Hormones. ; ;  Otherwise I feel fairly normal (remember too that my pain threshold is much higher than most) Fell down in a parking lot very hard yesterday. Had kind of a waking vision the other day. A notion came suddenly to mind that it isn’t the fact that there are too many white blood cells, It’s the fact that there aren’t enough CERTAIN (or Specific) ones. The Chalmydia infection and age spots remain. The birthmark is where the person first touched you. But back to the infection, This means that the foriegn organism is still latched on from within, it hasn’t been overcome by the immune system? Wonder why?, I believe it’s because the REGULATION of the endocrine system is operating incorrectly due to the underproduction of REGULATORY hormone cells in most cases. (such as T4 and subsequently T3). If this is true of most autoimmune diseases, then the intentional increase of an organism specifically targeted to increase Regulatory Hormone cell production should improve the condition of the organism. An Interesting side note is that I bet women overall as a group have an incidence of being twice as likely to aquire an autoimmune disease than men do. The ratio of MS is that it affects twice as many women than is does men. ; ;  Back to Why? (They have nearly twice as many hormones at any given time?) l8r…….Toxic Shock Syndrome does’nt affect men. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

On 16 May 2000 23:51:02 +0300, cga…@MASTNET.NET (Craig Garrison) wrote: }The hypothesis }was that we had evolved playing host to hook worms and that eliminating them }from our digestive systems was causing a problem.

You can read about this study at  http://www.ccfa.org/weekly/previous/wkly0827.htm The helminths used can only survive in human’s for a short time.  Folks with Crohn’s disease showed marked improvement. — jcarter at superaje dot com The next century and the next millennium begin at midnight on December 31,2000.

Response:

On Wed, 17 May 2000 10:40:35 -0400, Jim Carter <real.address.in….@nospam.com

wrote: The helminths used can only survive in human’s for a short time.  Folks with Crohn’s disease showed marked improvement. — jcarter at superaje dot com

Trust this man of mine to use big words like helminths. <ducking and running

— Joan Kennedy

Response:

No. And when I’m asked to do something I’d rather not I better stop saying "I’d rather eat a worm", or I just might be held to it. — Sharise http://ms.about.com EXCELLENCE is the Best Revenge!

Question:

Allergy Epidemic U.S. News & World Report May 8, 2000 Page 47-48 ….As modern life has become more hygienic, what with indoor plumbing, immunizations, and antibiotics, the human immune system has run out of things to do. It attacks allergens, and the body itself, as if it were=  bored…. …..It’s hard to document the incidence of allergy, partly because epidemiologists have tended to focus on asthma. But in some countries, including England, New Zealand, and Australia, statistics confirm a rise in allergies. In the United States, the numbers aren’t firm., but reports of one symptom, rhinitis, rose 31 percent from 1985 to 1995. The increases are too rapid to be caused by genetic changes. And people living in Eastern Russia, India, Indonesia, and rural Africa report far less trouble with allergies, even though there’s no lack of pollen, dust mites, and other triggers.=20 "Something about the Western style of living has given rise to more allergies," (Note: Key remark) says Donald Leung, head of the pediatric allergy division at National Jewish Medical and Research Center in Denver. …So molecular biologists are looking for ways to confer the benefits of dirty living without the risks. Researchers are already experimenting with "vaccines" made of Mycobacterium vaccae, a soil pathogen that doesn’t sicken humans, to see if it will encourage a Th1 response. Others are investigating whether bits of DNA, called CpG motifs, which are unique to bacteria, can be used the same way=96an approach that has already been used to reduce=  allergic asthma in laboratory mice…. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/000508/allergies.htm I found this interesting ’cause it supports the theory that one of the reasons for my continuing good health may be the constant exposure to a variety of bacteria which comes with bare-handed farming & gardening – my immune system simply doesn’t have time to attack my myelin.  But I don’t think a vaccine will work.  imo Injecting bacteria into the bloodstream is too direct & too strong an attack immune systems – natural exposure occurs when minute amounts of such bacteria enter via cuts, inhalation or=  ingestion. Chris F Chris F Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.=20  -Thomas Edison

Response:

Too much hygiene will never be a problem in our house.   I agree though, that exposure to natural soil pathogens is generally beneficial to the immune system.   On this theory, I raised my kids dirty and naked (well, some of the time anyway), and exposed them to common childhood diseases early.  They are all healthy adults now, and often even wear clothes.   Carmel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chris Fincham wrote:

Allergy Epidemic U.S. News & World Report May 8, 2000 Page 47-48 ….As modern life has become more hygienic, what with indoor plumbing, immunizations, and antibiotics, the human immune system has run out of things to do. It attacks allergens, and the body itself, as if it were=  bored…. …..It’s hard to document the incidence of allergy, partly because epidemiologists have tended to focus on asthma. But in some countries, including England, New Zealand, and Australia, statistics confirm a rise in allergies. In the United States, the numbers aren’t firm., but reports of one symptom, rhinitis, rose 31 percent from 1985 to 1995. The increases are too rapid to be caused by genetic changes. And people living in Eastern Russia, India, Indonesia, and rural Africa report far less trouble with allergies, even though there’s no lack of pollen, dust mites, and other triggers.=20 "Something about the Western style of living has given rise to more allergies," (Note: Key remark) says Donald Leung, head of the pediatric allergy division at National Jewish Medical and Research Center in Denver. …So molecular biologists are looking for ways to confer the benefits of dirty living without the risks. Researchers are already experimenting with "vaccines" made of Mycobacterium vaccae, a soil pathogen that doesn’t sicken humans, to see if it will encourage a Th1 response. Others are investigating whether bits of DNA, called CpG motifs, which are unique to bacteria, can be used the same way=96an approach that has already been used to reduce=  allergic asthma in laboratory mice…. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/000508/allergies.htm I found this interesting ’cause it supports the theory that one of the reasons for my continuing good health may be the constant exposure to a variety of bacteria which comes with bare-handed farming & gardening – my immune system simply doesn’t have time to attack my myelin.  But I don’t think a vaccine will work.  imo Injecting bacteria into the bloodstream is too direct & too strong an attack immune systems – natural exposure occurs when minute amounts of such bacteria enter via cuts, inhalation or=  ingestion. Chris F Chris F Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.=20  -Thomas Edison

— " Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel.   Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself." www.cyberwizards.com.au/~carmel www.cyberwizards.com.au/~jaragun

Response:

You’ve probably got something there, Sylvia.  Less people would certainly improve things.  Maybe nature is taking care of this, anyway. All the pollution and chemical interference with our food seems to be making the race infertile.  This generation (in general) seems to have more trouble reproducing than in the past, and that seems to be largely die to male infertility.   Agricultural chemicals, pesticides and household cleaners all mimic estrogen, and are ingested in water, food and the air we breathe.  Add to that battery animals fed food laced with growth hormones and antibiotics, then fed to people, and you don’t have to look much farther for a cause of male (or female, for that matter) infertility and immune system problems. Now we have – apparently – global warming due to mankind’s polluting activities, which is predicted to cause famines in the next generation. So latest forecasts predict that the world’s population will start to fall within fifty years.  If it isn’t already too late, maybe that will solve the problem.   We’ve really shat in our nest, haven’t we?  And people are so complacent about it, because they can’t see anything much happening right now, and none of it seems to be affecting them directly.  It’s very short-sighted, in my opinion.  We should be leaving the world in a better condition than when we entered it, as a legacy to our children and grandchildren.  That notion seems incredibly outdated now, and people aren’t looking past their own noses. I remember when I was a teenager searching for the answers to "life, the universe and everything",  I worked out that the human race is like an infection on the planet, put here to destroy the green stuff that grows like mould on the earth – (forests and plants, that is).  When the job is done, we will die out and the mission will have been accomplished. Earth will once again be cleansed of the infestation of life. Typical teenage pessimism, I suppose, but I still think it may not be too far from the truth, in many ways. As to the product of composting toilets, it’s just like soil (earth). It doesn’t smell bad and can be safely handled.  All the pathogens have been killed by the composting process, and the liquid evaporated out of it, so it’s just a really small amount of sweet-smelling earth.  You can use it to grow plants in the garden or in pots. It takes at least six months to get enough of the end product to fertilise a garden bed. FAR less trouble than a large weekly sack of plastics and smelly food scraps. If you want to see more info on composting toilets here are some links: http://www.clivusmultrum.com/ www.biolet.com/ http://www.greenbuilder.com/Sourcebook/CompostToilet.html   Carmel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -SYLV77 wrote:

Hi Carmel! I agree with you on the wasting of water problem.  In this country, it is now illegal to sell toilets that use the old standard of 5 gallons a flush.  Has it helped? I don’t know if anyone has done a study on this. <<  (Composting toilets) use no water, don’t smell if managed properly, and produce a usable product (compost for the garden).  Most importantly, they don’t pollute anything, unless badly mismanaged. But I don’t think this would work.  There is not enough garden space to take the compost in the city.  And I don’t think people would be eager to use such a product!  People around here have trouble managing their normal garbage; I’d hate to think of what they’d do with this stuff! My solution to the water pollution (and air pollution and land pollution) problems?  Less people. Sylvia (off my soapbox now!)

— " Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel.   Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself." www.cyberwizards.com.au/~carmel www.cyberwizards.com.au/~jaragun

Response:

        Hi Gang,           I just heard on the radio today that ?????? had inadvertantly connected a sewer pipe to a water line….. YUCK      Joyce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -CPD wrote:

In a world where precious water is being polluted/wasted at a tragic rate, I really can’t agree.  Sure, flush toilets are convenient, and in a high-rise building, for instance, I don’t know what kind of alternative would be possible.  But it really seems incredibly stupid to take good pure water, pollute it with waste, and then flush it away to pollute other water in streams, oceans and ground water, from where we will be taking drinking water. In a normal single-story house, even in a big city, composting toilets are a very viable alternative, in my opinion.  They use no water, don’t smell if managed properly, and produce a usable product (compost for the garden).  Most importantly, they don’t pollute anything, unless badly mismanaged. They don’t have to be outdoors.  Modern ones are in the house and look very much like normal flushing models.  Some use heated air (by solar or mains power), and some use earthworms.  The price used to be prohibitive, and most local councils would not approve their use.  Both of these problems are now largely resolved.  Price is now about the same as a septic system for many models. Most of us use modern "conveniences", like flushing toilets, without any thought for the long-term consequences of millions of people doing the same.  The problem is huge, and will only get bigger unless we address it.  It’s just not true that "one person can do nothing about it."  The solution starts with us, right now. Climbing down off my soapbox now. Carmel dciREM…@cheetah.net wrote: On 16 May 2000 21:38:31 GMT, kamatth…@aol.com (Kathi Matthews) wrote: In article <200005161150.e4GBo0X15…@mail.peterboro.net, finc…@PETERBORO.NET (Chris Fincham) writes: ….As modern life has become more hygienic, what with indoor plumbing, immunizations, and antibiotics, the human immune system has run out of things to do. It attacks allergens, and the body itself, as if it were= bored…. I’m still partial to flush toilets, though.  :=} Kathi One of the modern conveniences, for sure! Donn — " Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel.   Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself." www.cyberwizards.com.au/~carmel www.cyberwizards.com.au/~jaragun

Response:

Hi Carmel! I agree with you on the wasting of water problem.  In this country, it is now illegal to sell toilets that use the old standard of 5 gallons a flush.  Has it helped? I don’t know if anyone has done a study on this. <<  (Composting toilets) use no water, don’t smell if managed properly, and produce a usable product (compost for the garden).  Most importantly, they don’t pollute anything, unless badly mismanaged.    

But I don’t think this would work.  There is not enough garden space to take the compost in the city.  And I don’t think people would be eager to use such a product!  People around here have trouble managing their normal garbage; I’d hate to think of what they’d do with this stuff! My solution to the water pollution (and air pollution and land pollution) problems?  Less people. Sylvia (off my soapbox now!)

Response:

Bio Bac Interest (Additional Info) ; ;  Tryin to spread the words. ; ;  Good thinkin, Group… The diagnosis of Asthma as a health affliction has increased by 500% since 1970. Thats a lot of numbers for not so many years. The best I get to this mail thing is every third day or so… ; ;  Yes I got it and I understand that we are waiting for confirmation (?) Thats o.k. cause I am moving at the current time. ; ;  Moving to an environment with much cleaner air. ; ;  I hope to be relocated by mid-June but I am also curious and anxious about the effectiveness of increasing the production of Regulatory Hormones. ; ;  Otherwise I feel fairly normal (remember too that my pain threshold is much higher than most) Fell down in a parking lot very hard yesterday. Had kind of a waking vision the other day. A notion came suddenly to mind that it isn’t the fact that there are too many white blood cells, It’s the fact that there aren’t enough CERTAIN (or Specific) ones. The Chalmydia infection and age spots remain. The birthmark is where the person first touched you. But back to the infection, This means that the foriegn organism is still latched on from within, it hasn’t been overcome by the immune system? Wonder why?, I believe it’s because the REGULATION of the endocrine system is operating incorrectly due to the underproduction of REGULATORY hormone cells in most cases. (such as T4 and subsequently T3). If this is true of most autoimmune diseases, then the intentional increase of an organism specifically targeted to increase Regulatory Hormone cell production should improve the condition of the organism. An Interesting side note is that I bet women overall as a group have an incidence of being twice as likely to aquire an autoimmune disease than men do. The ratio of MS is that it affects twice as many women than is does men. ; ;  Back to Why? (They have nearly twice as many hormones at any given time?) l8r…….Included in the pages: In article

Some researchers have taken the good dirt idea a little farther.  I

read an article in Science News sometime within the past year where people with intestinal problems were put in a double blind trial where the active treatment was a glass of water with live hook worms in it. The hypothesis was that we had evolved playing host to hook worms and that eliminating them from our digestive systems was causing a problem.

The treatment proved effective. Prosit (Here’s to your health), —–Original Message—– Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 12:19 PM Subject: Re: OT: Allergy Epidemic (autoimmune-related) "Something about the Western style of living has given rise to

moreallergies,"

IMHO, this "something" is all the chemicals we are living with. Maybe "dirty" living is beneficial because you wouldn’t be using

hazardous chemicals to clean everything.  The people in the areas cited in this article are probably poor and can’t afford the"modern" cleaning products and personal care products with all the chemicals. l8r http://community.webtv.net/Hotmoth/MSReflections http://community.webtv.net/Hotmoth/andsoturnstheworld http://community.webtv.net/Hotmoth/PerpetualResume

Response:

In article <39224E1E.AA8CC…@cyberwizards.com.au

, CPD

<car…@cyberwizards.com.au

writes: In a normal single-story house, even in a big city, composting toilets are a very viable alternative, in my opinion.  

I doubt many people would do this.  In any case, I live in an apartment. Kathi

Response:

In article <200005161150.e4GBo0X15…@mail.peterboro.net

,

finc…@PETERBORO.NET (Chris Fincham) writes:

….As modern life has become more hygienic, what with indoor plumbing, immunizations, and antibiotics, the human immune system has run out of things to do. It attacks allergens, and the body itself, as if it were= bored….

I’m still partial to flush toilets, though.  :=} Kathi

Response:

On 16 May 2000 21:38:31 GMT, kamatth…@aol.com (Kathi Matthews) wrote:

In article <200005161150.e4GBo0X15…@mail.peterboro.net, finc…@PETERBORO.NET (Chris Fincham) writes: ….As modern life has become more hygienic, what with indoor plumbing, immunizations, and antibiotics, the human immune system has run out of things to do. It attacks allergens, and the body itself, as if it were= bored…. I’m still partial to flush toilets, though.  :=} Kathi

One of the modern conveniences, for sure! Donn

Response:

In a world where precious water is being polluted/wasted at a tragic rate, I really can’t agree.  Sure, flush toilets are convenient, and in a high-rise building, for instance, I don’t know what kind of alternative would be possible.  But it really seems incredibly stupid to take good pure water, pollute it with waste, and then flush it away to pollute other water in streams, oceans and ground water, from where we will be taking drinking water.   In a normal single-story house, even in a big city, composting toilets are a very viable alternative, in my opinion.  They use no water, don’t smell if managed properly, and produce a usable product (compost for the garden).  Most importantly, they don’t pollute anything, unless badly mismanaged.   They don’t have to be outdoors.  Modern ones are in the house and look very much like normal flushing models.  Some use heated air (by solar or mains power), and some use earthworms.  The price used to be prohibitive, and most local councils would not approve their use.  Both of these problems are now largely resolved.  Price is now about the same as a septic system for many models. Most of us use modern "conveniences", like flushing toilets, without any thought for the long-term consequences of millions of people doing the same.  The problem is huge, and will only get bigger unless we address it.  It’s just not true that "one person can do nothing about it."  The solution starts with us, right now. Climbing down off my soapbox now.   Carmel   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -dciREM…@cheetah.net wrote:

On 16 May 2000 21:38:31 GMT, kamatth…@aol.com (Kathi Matthews) wrote: In article <200005161150.e4GBo0X15…@mail.peterboro.net, finc…@PETERBORO.NET (Chris Fincham) writes: ….As modern life has become more hygienic, what with indoor plumbing, immunizations, and antibiotics, the human immune system has run out of things to do. It attacks allergens, and the body itself, as if it were= bored…. I’m still partial to flush toilets, though.  :=} Kathi One of the modern conveniences, for sure! Donn

— " Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel.   Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself." www.cyberwizards.com.au/~carmel www.cyberwizards.com.au/~jaragun

Response:

<< "Something about the Western style of living has given rise to more allergies,"  

IMHO, this "something" is all the chemicals we are living with. Maybe "dirty" living is beneficial because you wouldn’t be using hazardous chemicals to clean everything.  The people in the areas cited in this article are probably poor and can’t afford the "modern" cleaning products and personal care products with all the chemicals. Just a thought. . . Sylvia

Response:

In article <39212F55.4D58C…@cyberwizards.com.au

, CPD

<car…@cyberwizards.com.au

wrote:

| They are all healthy adults now, and often even wear clothes.   Hi Carmel, I know it is difficult when a child grows up in ways you didn’t intend ! — Take care James (#11)

Response:

Question:

You are so right!  One of my docs, who doesn’t approve of codeine, prescribed clonopin or clonazepam, which is highly and quickly addictive and very hard to stop without weeks or months of trouble sleeping. What else does Panadeine Forte contain? Cheers, Barbara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Gail <el…@one.net.au

wrote in message news:39057ce3@pink.one.net.au… Barbara I take Panadeine Forte which contains 30mg Codeine I take up to 5 (150mg Codeine) a day when I have bad pain.  My Drs have told me that is ok, well some Drs anyway. One Dr said it may be addictive but he feels that the addiction to "NO PAIN" is better than suffering. My Mother has severe arthritis & she will not take them until she is

almost

unable to walk because  one Dr said it was addictive so she would rather SUFFER than be addicted. What about all the other drugs that are given to Lupus patients to keep

them

going how come they never seem to get Questioned. Regards, Gail Mark Landy <patri…@mediaone.net wrote in message news:OpbM4.10815$QX1.458308@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net… For several years now I have controlled the fibromyalgia from connective tissue disease of lupus with tylenol codeine #4.  It’s been great.  I

can

use up to 100 mg a day when the pain is bad, and go down to nothing when the pain isn’t  there.  (I do this because NSAIDs are useless to me.) I’ve never had any bad side effects from reducing the dosage, and never felt the need to increase the dosage when the pain is quiescent. Yet my doctors are still fearful that I am going to become addicted to this despite more and more studies that show that only a very small

percentage

of people given these small amounts of opiates would become addicted. The standard line is that opiates should only be given to people who are going to die soon from their illness.  People who are going to suffer

for

years should not be given opiates just in case they may develop an addiction. Has anyone had similar results from tylenol codeine? Better yet, does anyone know where I can find  the most recent studies about opiate use in long term chronic pain? I’m a newbie to this posting business.  Hope I wasn’t too wordy! Barbara

Response:

<<She sent me to the Pain Relief Group in the hospital, and just as has happened every time I get a new doc, he or she wants to try something new, usually something I’ve already tried, but that they want me to try again. This means weeks of minimal pain relief while they experiment.  I wish they could experiment without using me! I understand what you’re saying.  Since I end up seeing a different doctor constantly, each one always wants to do something different.  The first thing they all want is to put me back on anti-inflammatories which I can’t take at all…not even the newer ones. I tell them what’s worked for me for the past 10 years, but they always have their own ideas.  BTW, I did discover one new thing.  Since I’m on Prednisone now for my asthma, I’ve discovered that my arthritis feels a LOT better.  I can actually walk up and down stairs pain-free for the first time in years.  The price is too high to stay on steroids any longer than necessary though, so I’ll have to go back to hobbling eventually. For now though I’m enjoying being able to do stairs. Sandra

Response:

On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:19:01 GMT, "Mark Landy" <patri…@mediaone.net

wrote:

You are so right!  One of my docs, who doesn’t approve of codeine, prescribed clonopin or clonazepam, which is highly and quickly addictive and very hard to stop without weeks or months of trouble sleeping. What else does Panadeine Forte contain? Cheers, Barbara

I have just the opposite problem.  They don’t mind giving me pain meds out the wazoo (well, my gp doesn’t like it but my rheumie has supplied me with a 6 month supply *all at once*.  If I were really despondent I have enough meds to do the trick.  But I can’t fathom doing that to my family. anyway.. despite having Lortab by the hundreds (literally) and a small supply of demerol and Ultram and Ambien and… I can’t get a simple benzo for sleep – even though they are constantly harping on me about getting more sleep. See my recent post though – this may change at least temporarily. boy this is hard to type… hugs, KCat

Response:

In article <3jvdgs8br538d2vujm07102m55jfrnr…@4ax.com

, KC

<kcdoc…@ghg.net

writes

[]

boy this is hard to type… hugs, KCat

Thinking of you. — Andy For Austrian philately: <URL:http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/austamps/

For Lupus: <URL:http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/lupus/

For my other interests: <URL:http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/

Response:

KC–I hear you. Be Better.  Too tired to type.   Kim * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

<<I have just the opposite problem.  They don’t mind giving me pain meds out the wazoo (well, my gp doesn’t like it but my rheumie has supplied me with a 6 month supply *all at once*.  If I were really despondent I have enough meds to do the trick.  But I can’t fathom doing that to my family.

Actually, I think there are a lot more chronic pain patients who become despondent enough to want to do themselves in when they’re left suffering with inadequate pain control.   Sandra

Response:

On 27 Apr 2000 03:26:04 GMT, scroyle…@aol.com (SCroyle909) wrote:

<<I have just the opposite problem.  They don’t mind giving me pain meds out the wazoo (well, my gp doesn’t like it but my rheumie has supplied me with a 6 month supply *all at once*.  If I were really despondent I have enough meds to do the trick.  But I can’t fathom doing that to my family. Actually, I think there are a lot more chronic pain patients who become despondent enough to want to do themselves in when they’re left suffering with inadequate pain control.  

I’m sure there are a lot of them.  I fortunately am not one.  I did go into a Major Depressive Episode about 4 years ago.. I had been having symptoms but just blamed them on being "out of shape", my scoliosis, a previous back injury, etc.  I had daily pain and exhaustion and I slowly (over a period of about 5 months) sunk into a deep despair.  In retrospect I believe the depression itself was a symptom as I could look at my life, see all the wonderful things I have (and I do have a *very* comfy life) and yet found no solace in that at all.   all I could see were my failures.  At the time I had no pain control other than aspirin and tylenol did nothing.  I was taking 4-6 aspirin a day. I finally got crazy enough (yeah, crazy is not politically correct – Idon’t care) that my husband and *I* got scared.  I saw my gp who I miss very much (she moved).  She believed everything going on was clinical depression.  I accepted that and it was okay because the Effexor she put me on alleviated much of the pain as well as the deep depression – almost immediately.  About 4 months after that the pain relief wore off but the depression control continued. Since going off the Effexor (after 1.5 years) I have had depressive episodes but there is a constant feeling that I will come out of them so I don’t reach that level of despondency that I did before.  Plus, the thought of choking down that many pills… have you seen the size of a 10 mg Lortab?  horse pill!  :P okay, gotta throw some humour in there. Anyway…  as I told Barbara in email – I had a history of hydrocone availability from various doctors (mostly for dental work) and yet I had managed to stretch a "5 day" supply (which I think was about 30 pills) for several months.  I am more lax now with it – I take it when I need it instead of waiting until I’m in agony.  That means I have developed some tolerance so I am aware of that and careful about it. But I just don’t have any desire to take away my daughter’s mom or my husband’s wife. (funny way to say that but you know what I mean).  I was in severe pain Sunday-Tuesday and by Monday night, yeah, I was thinking this would be easier for everyone if I weren’t alive.  But I know it wouldn’t.  My husband needs my love and companionship even if it is interrupted by pain.  My daughter needs a  mom – something a lot of depressives convince themselves is not true.  Perhaps I’m just not "as depressed" as a lot of my depressive friends (support group) or perhaps the Effexor fixed some little neuron in my brainstem?  :) Kcat

Response:

Post this same message on the alt.support.chronic-pain newsgroup.  You will get a ton of info and the proper articles. Mark Landy <patri…@mediaone.net

wrote in message

news:OpbM4.10815$QX1.458308@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

For several years now I have controlled the fibromyalgia from connective tissue disease of lupus with tylenol codeine #4.  It’s been great.  I can use up to 100 mg a day when the pain is bad, and go down to nothing when

the

pain isn’t  there.  (I do this because NSAIDs are useless to me.) I’ve never had any bad side effects from reducing the dosage, and never

felt

the need to increase the dosage when the pain is quiescent. Yet my doctors are still fearful that I am going to become addicted to

this

despite more and more studies that show that only a very small percentage

of

people given these small amounts of opiates would become addicted. The standard line is that opiates should only be given to people who are going to die soon from their illness.  People who are going to suffer for years should not be given opiates just in case they may develop an addiction. Has anyone had similar results from tylenol codeine? Better yet, does anyone know where I can find  the most recent studies

about

opiate use in long term chronic pain? I’m a newbie to this posting business.  Hope I wasn’t too wordy! Barbara

Response:

For several years now I have controlled the fibromyalgia from connective tissue disease of lupus with tylenol codeine #4.  It’s been great.  I can use up to 100 mg a day when the pain is bad, and go down to nothing when the pain isn’t  there.  (I do this because NSAIDs are useless to me.) I’ve never had any bad side effects from reducing the dosage, and never felt the need to increase the dosage when the pain is quiescent. Yet my doctors are still fearful that I am going to become addicted to this despite more and more studies that show that only a very small percentage of people given these small amounts of opiates would become addicted. The standard line is that opiates should only be given to people who are going to die soon from their illness.  People who are going to suffer for years should not be given opiates just in case they may develop an addiction. Has anyone had similar results from tylenol codeine? Better yet, does anyone know where I can find  the most recent studies about opiate use in long term chronic pain? I’m a newbie to this posting business.  Hope I wasn’t too wordy! Barbara

Response:

I have had a similar experience with brand name hydrocodone/tylenol (specifically Lortab).  Generic was useless for me (may depend on the generic manufacturer).  NSAIDs helped but ripped my gut up despite the preventive measures of antacids. I’m fortunate that my doctor agrees that controlling the pain that I will probably contend with the rest of my life is more important than the off chance that I will develop and addiction.  I can go days without it (as long as I have my Ultram) but I will sometimes take it everyday for weeks on end to no ill effect.  Doctors need to be better educated in this respect.  That goes for benzodiazepines as well which some people I know have taken for 20 years and not developed addictions or tolerance.  We are all different with meds yet many docs want to pigeonhole us. Hope you find more of the info you need.  If you do, could you refer me to it as well.  I don’t need it so much for my doctor but for my extended family who all think I’m a wimp for needing pain meds. You’re posting fine but I was sure you were Mark until you used your name in this last post.  :) Take care. KCat in Houston Alt.Support.Lupus Frequently asked Questions (FAQ) http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/aslfaq20.htm My Lupus Pages http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/mypage.htm "She’s running to stand… still" (Bono)

Response:

Not being able to use any anti- inflammatories whatsoever for my arthritis, I’ve also had to use Tylenol #3 occasionally for many years for moderate to severe pain.  Attitudes of doctors toward this has varied quite a bit.  Some are still convinced that people with chronic pain are at risk for drug dependence.  Others haven’t given me any problem about prescribing it.  Of course, I use the medication very sparingly and often don’t take anything at all until I get the point of intensely suffering.  I should probably take something more often, but I’m afraid that if I did I’d start to have problems getting Tylenol #3 prescribed when I really needed it.   Anyway, there is a recent study on the use of opioid analgesics for people with arthritis and chronic pain as you’ll find in the MedScape link below.   http://www.medscape.com/ABFP/JABFP/1999/v12.n04/fp1204.05.parr/fp1204… arr-01.html Sandra

Response:

Mark/Barbara::  Pain is subjective, not objective. I have used Tylenol#3 every 4 hours as needed for pain and 2 at bedtime for years.  I am fortunate that #1-I have not felt the need to ask for a stronger drug, and #2-my doc knows me from many years of working together, and the ability to get down and discuss my needs.  I also use Chloral Hydrate at bedtime, 500mg per tsp., 2 tsp at bedtime, may repeat 1 tsp in 1 hour if needed. Which I rarely do.  This insomnia syndrome began when I worked 12 hour nights OB/GYN and flip- flopped on my schedule that I didn’t sleep, had migraines and had to fight to find the combination to alleviate the symptons.  Now some docs just SCREAM when they hear chloral hydrate–it’s a schedule IV drug, I believe.  But I don’t misuse or abuse it, and can go weeks without it if I don’t need it.  I’m so tired of the medical society trying to dictate how the depth of our discomfort is and what we feel relieves it.  Read the reports on opiates, but remember that only you feel your pain and know what relieves it. Noone can ever make a mistake by becoming more knowledgable about the drugs we put into our bodies.   Kim * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

Carie,  I know what you mean.  I also am a nurse and it just blows my mind that some damn docs think that tylenol is the wonder drug for pain.  Pop 2 and call me in the morning, gee it used to be aspirin.LOL. If these docs would only just walk a few minutes in our shoes then they would opt for the good stuff which makes us comfortable.   I also have lupus and sometimes the pain in unbearable and after taking 2 darvocet it does not take it away.  Wouldn’t those docs crap if they had that pain. Oh my give me a shot ha ha…… Really,  I hear the same thing with terminal patients,  "We don’t want them to get addicted to this stuff"  Where is their heads at?  If I were terminal and a Dr. said that to me.  Well I’ll tell you what I would say and — my response would be  "  Hell doc, the Good Lord wants me smiling when I get there and you ain’t helping any!!!" — JANERS

Response:

Hi barbara!      I have to tell you as a nurse I have worked with dozens; and I mean dozens; of doctors who laugh patients off in pain and give them tylenol. It makes me so mad I could scream. We as health professionals are taught to help those who suffer no matter what regardless of whether thay might become addicted or not. There are more people in pain than those who are chronic abusers. I have had severe SLE for almost four years and I mean severe (pain). I also have stills disease. I have suffered before because I have had one or two doctors blow me off. I have also though, had some very compassionate doctors as well. My husband is a doctor himself, and I have taught him too the real meaning of pain. Continue to take your meds. and don’t worry about addiction. People in true pain will not become addicted. And even so; which will scar worse? The pain or the addiction?            May God Bless You,            Carie                  

Response:

<<I also am a nurse and it just blows my mind that some damn docs think that tylenol is the wonder drug for pain.  Pop 2 and call me in the morning, gee it used to be aspirin.LOL.

I know what you mean!  I’ve had doctors ask me if I tried a couple of Tylenol and if that helped.  When I said, no, it wasn’t strong enough.  They’ll say to just take ordinary Tylenol for pain anyway.  It’s as if they never heard what I said.   This does get me a bit frustrated because it should be pretty clear I don’t abuse pain meds.  I don’t ask for a prescription very often and frequently suffer without taking anything at all for it until it gets to the point where I just can’t stand it anymore.  That’s not anything even remotely close to addiction. Sandra

Response:

On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 06:13:02 GMT, "Mark Landy" <patri…@mediaone.net

wrote:

Yet my doctors are still fearful that I am going to become addicted to this despite more and more studies that show that only a very small percentage of people given these small amounts of opiates would become addicted. The standard line is that opiates should only be given to people who are going to die soon from their illness.  People who are going to suffer for years should not be given opiates just in case they may develop an addiction.

What *nonsense*. Let’s face it, a lot of us have pain at times that just isn’t dealt with by anything *but* opiates. I can’t believe any reputable health-care professional would deny someone with a chronic illness proper pain relief because they *might* get addicted when it’s patently obvious that they already are suffering. If it is a problem with your doc, perhaps you should try keeping a diary of your opiate use, to show that you’re not using them every day, and that your consumption goes up and down with your condition. They should be able to match that with the amounts they are prescribing you, to check you’re not cheating. Suzanne

Response:

In article <9ENM4.7625$t_3.96…@cletus.bright.net

, Janers

<rojak…@bright.net

writes Carie,  I know what you mean.  I also am a nurse and it just blows my mind that some damn docs think that tylenol is the wonder drug for pain.  Pop 2 and call me in the morning, gee it used to be aspirin.LOL.

There’s an old story.. Doctor rings plumber at 3am. "My toilet is blocked"  Plumber replies "Throw a couple of aspirins down it, and ring me in the morning if it’s no better." — Andy For Austrian philately: <URL:http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/austamps/

For Lupus: <URL:http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/lupus/

For my other interests: <URL:http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/

Response:

<<I can’t believe any reputable health-care professional would deny someone with a chronic illness proper pain relief because they *might* get addicted when it’s patently obvious that they already are suffering.

And yet it does happen.   Just a thought…but it’s not always obvious to health care workers how much someone is suffering.  For example, I tend to be the silent type.  I don’t cry and moan unless I’m in extreme pain, and even then not much.  I don’t feel comfortable trying to change my personality just so someone else will believe me that I’m in a lot of pain either.  I do tell them how much pain I’m having; however, I’ve had doctors look at me and say it was *obvious* that I was NOT really suffering too much.  What do they expect?  A good show?  Actually, there are some very good pain scales out there.  It would be nice if more doctors used them to assess pain rather than relying solely on their powers of observation. Sandra

Response:

Hope I didn’t get too carried away in my previous post.  I had a very bad night.  In the ER most of it with severe bronchitis and picked up a diagnosis of asthma.  Apparently the bronchitis triggered a pretty good asthma attack which still isn’t under control despite four hours of aggressive treatment last night plus being sent home inhalers, steroids, antibiotics, etc.  I’m kind of grouchy today too, I guess, after having to sleep what little I could in an upright position.  Just isn’t my week.   Anyway, hope I didn’t come across too strongly in my previous post. Sandra

Response:

On 24 Apr 2000 14:30:55 GMT, scroyle…@aol.com (SCroyle909) wrote:

Anyway, hope I didn’t come across too strongly in my previous post. Sandra

heh heh – Sandra – if you came across too strong then I am in deep doo-doo!  I had a horrid night last night and the day isn’t progressing too well either. It’s interesting to me that this thread and one almost identical to it are going on here and in the Hamline mailing list at the same time.  I don’t know if people reading the same lists got the same gripe or if it’s just coinkydink. What is further interesting to me is that I hear so often of people either with SLE or with family members with SLE also having Asthma. What’s going on here?  More fodder for the researchers I guess if they ever make the connection. KCat in Houston Alt.Support.Lupus Frequently asked Questions (FAQ) http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/aslfaq20.htm My Lupus Pages http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/mypage.htm "She’s running to stand… still" (Bono)

Response:

Andy–Thanks for coming through for me.  Are we all having flares or what???  I can’t think today, and the posts all sound like we’re having a terrible lot of a day. Venting? I don’t know.  But I’m glad  I didn’t let my husband take me to the ER last night.  Anyway, Andy–you always put the perspective in the right spot.—Kim * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

Barbara I take Panadeine Forte which contains 30mg Codeine I take up to 5 (150mg Codeine) a day when I have bad pain.  My Drs have told me that is ok, well some Drs anyway. One Dr said it may be addictive but he feels that the addiction to "NO PAIN" is better than suffering. My Mother has severe arthritis & she will not take them until she is almost unable to walk because  one Dr said it was addictive so she would rather SUFFER than be addicted. What about all the other drugs that are given to Lupus patients to keep them going how come they never seem to get Questioned. Regards, Gail Mark Landy <patri…@mediaone.net

wrote in message

news:OpbM4.10815$QX1.458308@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

For several years now I have controlled the fibromyalgia from connective tissue disease of lupus with tylenol codeine #4.  It’s been great.  I can use up to 100 mg a day when the pain is bad, and go down to nothing when

the

pain isn’t  there.  (I do this because NSAIDs are useless to me.) I’ve never had any bad side effects from reducing the dosage, and never

felt

the need to increase the dosage when the pain is quiescent. Yet my doctors are still fearful that I am going to become addicted to

this

despite more and more studies that show that only a very small percentage

of

people given these small amounts of opiates would become addicted. The standard line is that opiates should only be given to people who are going to die soon from their illness.  People who are going to suffer for years should not be given opiates just in case they may develop an addiction. Has anyone had similar results from tylenol codeine? Better yet, does anyone know where I can find  the most recent studies

about

opiate use in long term chronic pain? I’m a newbie to this posting business.  Hope I wasn’t too wordy! Barbara

Response:

I never could understand the 1 to 10 scale either! If you don’t tell them your in at least a 9 or 10 scale of pain they don’t feel your in enough pain to justify giving you a shot to releive the pain!  I can tolorate a lot of pain and have over the years and I only go to the ER if I despertly need some strong relief! I hate going to the ER! It’s so expensive and it takes at least 4 hours to get something done. Then they still question you if they can’t find anything on the x-rays or CT Scans… Like I would really go to the ER and make up all this shit just to get a lousy shot of Demerol, Right!

Response:

Good idea, Suzanne.  I’ll do just that.  Even though I am am terrible at keeping track of anything, this is important. Thanks, Barbara, Suzanne Doig <smd49@*!*its.canterbury.ac.nz

wrote in message

news:39041342.4006183@news.canterbury.ac.nz… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 06:13:02 GMT, "Mark Landy" <patri…@mediaone.net wrote: Yet my doctors are still fearful that I am going to become addicted to

this

despite more and more studies that show that only a very small percentage

of

people given these small amounts of opiates would become addicted. The standard line is that opiates should only be given to people who are going to die soon from their illness.  People who are going to suffer for years should not be given opiates just in case they may develop an addiction. What *nonsense*. Let’s face it, a lot of us have pain at times that just isn’t dealt with by anything *but* opiates. I can’t believe any reputable health-care professional would deny someone with a chronic illness proper pain relief because they *might* get addicted when it’s patently obvious that they already are suffering. If it is a problem with your doc, perhaps you should try keeping a diary of your opiate use, to show that you’re not using them every day, and that your consumption goes up and down with your condition. They should be able to match that with the amounts they are prescribing you, to check you’re not cheating. Suzanne

Response:

Sandra, I think my doc trusts that I am suffering, maybe because she can tell that I am the stoic type.  That happened because my husband passionately tells her that I am suffering and she must do something about it, while I just say that I really do need x amount of pain relief.  We aren’t complicit in this–he just can’t stand seeing me in pain. She sent me to the Pain Relief Group in the hospital, and just as has happened every time I get a new doc, he or she wants to try something new, usually something I’ve already tried, but that they want me to try again. This means weeks of minimal pain relief while they experiment.  I wish they could experiment without using me! Barbara SCroyle909 <scroyle…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20000424102503.17465.00000012@ng-bg1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

<<I can’t believe any reputable health-care professional would deny

someone

with a chronic illness proper pain relief because they *might* get

addicted

when it’s patently obvious that they already are suffering. And yet it does happen. Just a thought…but it’s not always obvious to health care workers how

much

someone is suffering.  For example, I tend to be the silent type.  I don’t

cry

and moan unless I’m in extreme pain, and even then not much.  I don’t feel comfortable trying to change my personality just so someone else will

believe

me that I’m in a lot of pain either.  I do tell them how much pain I’m

having;

however, I’ve had doctors look at me and say it was *obvious* that I was

NOT

really suffering too much.  What do they expect?  A good show?  Actually,

there

are some very good pain scales out there.  It would be nice if more

doctors

used them to assess pain rather than relying solely on their powers of observation. Sandra

Response:

Question:

I too am in the Reserves and developed Adult Onset Asthma.  I went through a medical evaluation for other medical problems and was deemed fit for duty with major restrictions, which also made it possible to avoid most asthma problems.  It is based for those already in on a case by case scenario, to include what military job specialties are held.  The odds of my ever seeing or being anywhere near any combat related environment are next to nil, as I’m not allowed to wear a helmet.

Oddly, I am medically cleared for worldwide deployment and considered to be fully qualified to maintain my position as a Tank Commander/Master Gunner in an armored cavalry unit. The only medical restriction I have is that I cannot run on the physical fitness test.  I run on the test anyway, but tell the graders not to record my time (it is a pride thing). It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For instance, what about the army employee who makes training videos?   Or the lawyers from A Few Good Men?   Um, you have the US military confused with Hollywood, Roger Rabbit. Sheldon So are you arguing that there are no lawyers in the military? No.  Are you arguing that those actors portraying lawyers are in fact real lawyers (they’re not) or that the roles they played in a Hollywood film are in fact true depictions of military lawyer like behaviour (not even close)… are you even suggesting that the film is based on factual events?  Not.  All events portrayed in that film are 100% fiction.  Roger Rabbit is a Toon.  And obviously so are you, Dip. <G

What a ridiculous argument.  Boy, are you making a stretch.  No, I am merely arguing that such jobs as those portrayed in the movie exist.  Which I proved. I made no statement that the actors are actual lawyers, that the film was based on a true story, or about how military lawyers behave. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -True fact:  In real life I was there.  I participated In the Cuban blockade aboard the USS John Paul Jones DD 932.  I landed on the beach at Guantanamo. For 89 days I was deployed on Cuban soil.  I was awarded the Cuban Campaign Expeditionary Medal.  I have no intention of recounting the actual events which I personally witnessed and participated in but I will say that none of those events as portrayed by that Hollywood ever film occured, that film is a total fabrication… the overly trite plot as hackneyed as they come. Read film review here: http://www.ew.com/r0/ew/Complete_EW/in?/ew/archive/1,1798,1|8528|3|a_few_g ood_men,00.html?name1=a+few+good+men&lastresult=0&query=%22a+few+good+men% 22+%3CIN%3E+MAJOR+%3CAND%3E+SRCE%3Dfilm&major_ref=ON&mtype=1&list_size=6&d irection= Sheldon

Your link took me nowhere.  All of the rest of your post is irrelevant to the existence of lawyer jobs in the military. I am resisting the urge to imitate your useless and idiotic behavior of ending the post by calling me some sort of belittling name. hallie *** From a questionnaire at alt.fan.conan-obrien: Q- In high school, Did you ever sit at the cool table? A-I’m too cool to sit with cool people. A- Yes I did. All by myself.

Response:

For instance, what about the army employee who makes training videos?   Or the lawyers from A Few Good Men?   Um, you have the US military confused with Hollywood, Roger Rabbit. Sheldon

OH!  A HA HA HA HA HA.  Ha ha ha.  That’s a riot. By the way, did you know that A Few Good Men was a play by Aaron Sorkin that I saw in New York and Charlotte, NC before the Hollywood version. So are you arguing that there are no lawyers in the military, that was just made up?  Try going to the following site. http://www.jag.navy.mil/html/welcome_recruit.htm Of all the reviews I read, all the criticism I ever heard, even today before posting this, I never was able to find the criticism "Sorkin got all the facts wrong about the process of military law."  He did his research. So why are you trying to ridicule me?  Is that how you stay alive in the shark pit, by snapping out the cool barbs?  Speaking of movies, did you ever see the movie Ridicule?  I recommend it for you.  And it’s not out of Hollywood either. hallie *** From a questionnaire at alt.fan.conan-obrien: Q- In high school, Did you ever sit at the cool table? A-I’m too cool to sit with cool people. A- Yes I did. All by myself.

Response:

For instance, what about the army employee who makes training videos?   Or the lawyers from A Few Good Men?   Um, you have the US military confused with Hollywood, Roger Rabbit. Sheldon So are you arguing that there are no lawyers in the military?

No.  Are you arguing that those actors portraying lawyers are in fact real lawyers (they’re not) or that the roles they played in a Hollywood film are in fact true depictions of military lawyer like behaviour (not even close)… are you even suggesting that the film is based on factual events?  Not.  All events portrayed in that film are 100% fiction.  Roger Rabbit is a Toon.  And obviously so are you, Dip. <G True fact:  In real life I was there.  I participated In the Cuban blockade aboard the USS John Paul Jones DD 932.  I landed on the beach at Guantanamo. For 89 days I was deployed on Cuban soil.  I was awarded the Cuban Campaign Expeditionary Medal.  I have no intention of recounting the actual events which I personally witnessed and participated in but I will say that none of those events as portrayed by that Hollywood ever film occured, that film is a total fabrication… the overly trite plot as hackneyed as they come. Read film review here: http://www.ew.com/r0/ew/Complete_EW/in?/ew/archive/1,1798,1|8528|3|a_few_g ood_men,00.html?name1=a+few+good+men&lastresult=0&query=%22a+few+good+men% 22+%3CIN%3E+MAJOR+%3CAND%3E+SRCE%3Dfilm&major_ref=ON&mtype=1&list_size=6&d irection= Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

In a broad sense, asthma doesn’t necessarily mean a person is unable to enlist unless they’ve encountered attacks or problems within so many years of enlistment.

True. 12 sticks in my mind too, though a little voice says it may be 14 not 12.  Unfortunately, in the specific case of the poster’s son, he is now 17, has asthma currently, is on meds for it, and developed it 2 years ago, so at about 15; which means absolutely not eligible for enlistment. But for someone who had had asthma as a small child, had ZERO problems after the magical age [12?], INCLUDING not being on any medications nor needing any medications after that magical age, then in that case on a case by case basis the individual may be permitted to enlist. SW.

Response:

I too am in the Reserves and developed Adult Onset Asthma.  I went through a medical evaluation for other medical problems and was deemed fit for duty with major restrictions, which also made it possible to avoid most asthma problems.  It is based for those already in on a case by case scenario, to include what military job specialties are held.  The odds of my ever seeing or being anywhere near any combat related environment are next to nil, as I’m not allowed to wear a helmet. However, everything I’ve ever heard (after 13 years in Active Duty and Reserves) is that a Recruit can have a history of asthma, so long as the most recent attack or problems didn’t occur say after a certain age (for some reason 12 sticks in my head). A good recruiter would ensure the regulation has been interpreted as to the specifics. In a broad sense, asthma doesn’t necessarily mean a person is unable to enlist unless they’ve encountered attacks or problems within so many years of enlistment. Sally Avery

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have adult onset asthma and am currently in the US military reserves. First off, I have to tell you that an asthma diagnosis is an automatic disqualification to enlistment.  If he hides the asthma, enlists and is caught (and they will catch it) he will be separated as a ‘fraudulent enlistment’ and given a discharge code that will give him a penalty if he ever tries to apply for a government job. If somebody with several years of service is determined to have asthma then an ‘exception to policy’ can be made on a case by case basis. This is what happened to me, I was allowed to remain in service as a ‘exception to policy’ due to my possessing certain critical skills. The basic problem is that if you have an asthma attack while in a gas mask you will die unless the mask is removed.  And if you are on a battlefield, taking the mask off can mean death. It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

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This is a surprise to me, I guess.  I always assumed that asthma would preclude any combat posts, but what about all the army jobs that are not in combat or in third-world countries and so on?  For instance, what about the army employee who makes training videos?  Or the lawyers from A Few Good Men?  

There is no spaciality in the US Army where the soldier is not subject to combat/overseas assignment.  Completely noncombat positions are filled with civilians in order to free up a soldier for deployment. The basic rule is that every soldier must be deployable into a combat zone. BTW, military camera crews are assigned to ‘combat camera crews’ and work under the direction of the Center for Military History.  Their primary mission is to capture combat operations for the historical record.  They only make training videos in peacetime. It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

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Thank you everyone for your responses.  I had thought he would not be accepted, but I wanted to get some verification (especially since "Mom’s of teenagers typically don’t know anything")  :o)  He is disappointed, but at least he knows now that military is not an option and can make different plans. Thanks again, Patrice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello to the group, My son is almost 17 and was diagnosed with asthma 2 years ago.  As his high school graduation approaches next year, he has entertained ideas about going in the military (personally I would rather see him at art school, but it will be his decision).  My question is will the military accept an asthmatic?  His asthma is well controlled, however he does take meds daily. I told him I would post that questions on this ng and see if anyone here has past military service while being asthmatic. Thanks, Patrice

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First off, I have to tell you that an asthma diagnosis is an automatic disqualification to enlistment.  If he hides the asthma, enlists and is caught (and they will catch it) he will be separated as a ‘fraudulent enlistment’ and given a discharge code that will give him a penalty if he ever tries to apply for a government job. If somebody with several years of service is determined to have asthma then an ‘exception to policy’ can be made on a case by case basis. This is what happened to me, I was allowed to remain in service as a ‘exception to policy’ due to my possessing certain critical skills.

This is a surprise to me, I guess.  I always assumed that asthma would preclude any combat posts, but what about all the army jobs that are not in combat or in third-world countries and so on?  For instance, what about the army employee who makes training videos?  Or the lawyers from A Few Good Men?   hallie *** From a questionnaire at alt.fan.conan-obrien: Q- In high school, Did you ever sit at the cool table? A-I’m too cool to sit with cool people. A- Yes I did. All by myself.

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writes: And in this connection,  I’ve been thinking of leaving this group entirely.  I’ve felt for some time that the bigoted pseudoscientific proselytizers were actually getting to everybody.  Thankfully I’ve had a flood of mail from people who have found Buteyko through this n.g. and are really grateful.  So I’m afraid folks, I’m here until someone manages to have me banned!

Yes Peter, please leave! Israel Weber

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For instance, what about the army employee who makes training videos?   Or the lawyers from A Few Good Men?  

Um, you have the US military confused with Hollywood, Roger Rabbit. Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

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According to Professor Buteyko, hyperventilation is stimulated by mouth breathing and also gets worse at night when asleep.  That’s why we seem to go through physiological lows in the middle of the night and often asthma attacks are at their worst in the early hours of the morning.  

Now can you support this as an actual fact?  Or is this something the guy simply fabricated? According to 19th century explorer George Catlin,  the secret of the incredible health and good looks of the Indian tribes of North America (the indigenous Indians befeore they became westernized), was due to their preoccupation with closed mouth breathing.

Let me guess – you consider this to be a ’scientific’ reference. Finally, can I say that I no longer have the time or patience to read the garbage written by Scooby, Campbell, anonymous remailers etc.  If you find that they have managed to raise an interesting issue you would like me to address, please post  it under a name that is not associated with flaming and other forms of abuse.  I try to read all the other replies to my posts.   You can always email it to me for a guaranteed reply.

Because we keep asking for factual information? It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

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Hello to the group, My son is almost 17 and was diagnosed with asthma 2 years ago.  As his high school graduation approaches next year, he has entertained ideas about going in the military (personally I would rather see him at art school, but it will be his decision).  My question is will the military accept an asthmatic?  His asthma is well controlled, however he does take meds daily. I told him I would post that questions on this ng and see if anyone here has past military service while being asthmatic.

I have adult onset asthma and am currently in the US military reserves. First off, I have to tell you that an asthma diagnosis is an automatic disqualification to enlistment.  If he hides the asthma, enlists and is caught (and they will catch it) he will be separated as a ‘fraudulent enlistment’ and given a discharge code that will give him a penalty if he ever tries to apply for a government job. If somebody with several years of service is determined to have asthma then an ‘exception to policy’ can be made on a case by case basis. This is what happened to me, I was allowed to remain in service as a ‘exception to policy’ due to my possessing certain critical skills. The basic problem is that if you have an asthma attack while in a gas mask you will die unless the mask is removed.  And if you are on a battlefield, taking the mask off can mean death. It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

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I suggest he tries Buteyko therapy to get rid of his asthma,

He can try any number of scams.  Why should he try yours? It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

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Greetings Peter, I visited your website months ago when I first started being involved in this ng and newly diagnosed with asthma  I am sure you mean well, but after I read about your exercises and particularly nocturnal mouth breathing and taping a straw between one’s lips, I can’t even go there much less administer same to my son.

If you were as aware of Peter’s posting history, misrepresentations of fact, outright lies, and other tactics – you would be less than impressed. Your best bet would be to assume that anything Peter Kolb says is inaccurate unless an independent source that is qualified as an expert in the field confirms it. It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

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Hello Patrice I suggest he tries Buteyko therapy to get rid of his asthma, Peter Kolb

Hello Peter nonsense eric "when all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done"

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Hello Patrice I visited your website months ago when I first started being involved in this ng and newly diagnosed with asthma  I am sure you mean well, but after I read about your exercises and particularly nocturnal mouth breathing and taping a straw between one’s lips, I can’t even go there much less administer same to my son.

Fair enough, I can understand that.  I don’t want to be pushy so we’ll just leave it at that. But for the sake of others who are reading this,  I’m not sure where the straw came from.  We don’t use straws. According to Professor Buteyko, hyperventilation is stimulated by mouth breathing and also gets worse at night when asleep.  That’s why we seem to go through physiological lows in the middle of the night and often asthma attacks are at their worst in the early hours of the morning.   The rationale behind mouth taping is to ensure nose breathing at night.  For some reason or other it provokes fear and terror in western minds.  But I’ve never heard of anyone have a problem with it. You only need a bit of paper tape with tags folded on each end. It just goes vertically across the lips.  For the first few days people who aren’t used to it sometimes remove it in their sleep, but after a few days most people would’nt dream of going to bed without it because of the benefits. The benefits are that it tends to even out breathing…. You don’t get that frantic breathing followed by minutes of sleep apnea.  It cuts down and usually eliminates snoring.  It gives you a much better quality of sleep because you don’t get nightmares from the sleep apnea.  You don’t spend hours awake at night with anxiety attacks. And the other interesting thing is that it stops you having to get up and go to the toilet in the middle of the night, although most of the Doogy Housers on this group would’nt have a clue why.  I would imagine that modern orthodontists who are starting to take an interest in mouth breathing, would consider it to be beneficial. According to 19th century explorer George Catlin,  the secret of the incredible health and good looks of the Indian tribes of North America (the indigenous Indians befeore they became westernized), was due to their preoccupation with closed mouth breathing.  They would go to extraordinary lengths to ensure that their babies were breathing through their noses at night.  He suggests that closed mouth breathing enables the saliva to wash debris from out of the gums, leaving the gums healthy instead of dried out and infested with festering food particles.  If anyone is interested in this book, it’s available off our web site in WORD6 format, complete with illustrations and extensive foot notes.  It’s interesting that his book was published in 1870, around the same time DaCosta discovered Chronic Hyperventilation Syndrome in battle stressed American soldiers fighting in the civil war. I’m also not sure what Patrice has against the Buteyko exercises.  All you really have to do is reduce your breathing to sustain a slight hunger for air over a period of time.  Nobody else I know of is scared by that. The only way to fix chronic hyperventilation is to reverse the process that has caused it in the first place.  If you can find a better way of doing it than through Buteyko exercises and still get the same results…. please go for it.  But you actually have to actively do something about it.  I guess this is foreign to our culture where we try to fix everything with popping pills. By the way, the exercises aren’t "mine".  Buteyko practice  today is a huge institution it Russia and has thankfully obtained a foothold in the west now too.  I’m just a messenger bringing you the good news that you no longer have to have asthma. Finally, can I say that I no longer have the time or patience to read the garbage written by Scooby, Campbell, anonymous remailers etc.  If you find that they have managed to raise an interesting issue you would like me to address, please post  it under a name that is not associated with flaming and other forms of abuse.  I try to read all the other replies to my posts.   You can always email it to me for a guaranteed reply. And in this connection,  I’ve been thinking of leaving this group entirely.  I’ve felt for some time that the bigoted pseudoscientific proselytizers were actually getting to everybody.  Thankfully I’ve had a flood of mail from people who have found Buteyko through this n.g. and are really grateful.  So I’m afraid folks, I’m here until someone manages to have me banned! Peter Kolb Biomedical Engineer Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

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Hello to the group, My son is almost 17 and was diagnosed with asthma 2 years ago.  As his high school graduation approaches next year, he has entertained ideas about going in the military (personally I would rather see him at art school, but it will be his decision).  My question is will the military accept an asthmatic?  His asthma is well controlled, however he does take meds daily. I told him I would post that questions on this ng and see if anyone here has past military service while being asthmatic.

Hello Patrice I suggest he tries Buteyko therapy to get rid of his asthma, Peter Kolb Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

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I suggest he tries Buteyko therapy to get rid of his asthma, Peter Kolb

Once again our resident quackster offers his uneducated opinion.  Thanks again Peter for such a nicely blatant comment which I can now forward to your government.  This and several of your last posts will make for good fodder. You just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper, don’t you?? Once again, there is NO cure for asthma.  Treatment for both acute and chronic phases yes, controllability for the most part, and the expectation of a relatively normal life IF you are compliant with your treatments…..and that DOES NOT mean substitute quackery for intelligence and scientifically proven therapies. Scooby RCP, EMT-P Perinatal-Pediatric Respiratory Specialist This mail is a natural product.  The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.

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Greetings Peter, I visited your website months ago when I first started being involved in this ng and newly diagnosed with asthma  I am sure you mean well, but after I read about your exercises and particularly nocturnal mouth breathing and taping a straw between one’s lips, I can’t even go there much less administer same to my son. Patrice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello to the group, My son is almost 17 and was diagnosed with asthma 2 years ago.  As his high school graduation approaches next year, he has entertained ideas about going in the military (personally I would rather see him at art school, but it will be his decision).  My question is will the military accept an asthmatic?  His asthma is well controlled, however he does take meds daily. I told him I would post that questions on this ng and see if anyone here has past military service while being asthmatic. Hello Patrice I suggest he tries Buteyko therapy to get rid of his asthma, Peter Kolb Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics    http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

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Of course, I should have thought about that.  We are in the USA. Patrice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello to the group, My son is almost 17 and was diagnosed with asthma 2 years ago.  As his high school graduation approaches next year, he has entertained ideas about going in the military (personally I would rather see him at art school, but it will be his decision).  My question is will the military accept an asthmatic?  His asthma is well controlled, however he does take meds daily. I told him I would post that questions on this ng and see if anyone here has past military service while being asthmatic. Thanks, Patrice I would think that before one could even begin addressing your query, that is with any semblance of intelligence, it would make a difference to first know which country’s military your son is considering for enlistment. Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

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My son is almost 17 and was diagnosed with asthma 2 years ago.  As his high school graduation approaches next year, he has entertained ideas about going in the military (personally I would rather see him at art school, but it will be his decision).  My question is will the military accept an asthmatic?  His asthma is well controlled, however he does take meds daily.

I read in another post that you are referring to the US military. Having asthma means one is permanently disqualified from joining any branch of the US military.  IIRC, the cut-off age is ‘any asthma after age 12′, though that may be incorrect/have changed.  But, absolutely, that he has it at 17 he will never, under current rules, be able to join the US military [voluntarily or by being drafted, though he still must comply with Selective Service registration rules].  Sorry. Now, if he were already IN the US military when he developed asthma he may be able to stay in, depending on which branch of service and the severeity and contrllability of the asthma.  Some branches kick you out upon a diagnosis of asthma; others let youstay in if it is controllable, but limit you to Continental US duty *only* for the rest of your career.  Which is why you may get a post from someone saying that they had asthma and were allowed to stay in the military. But if you have it before you enter, you will not be allowed to enter. No waivers available. SW.

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Hello to the group, My son is almost 17 and was diagnosed with asthma 2 years ago.  As his high school graduation approaches next year, he has entertained ideas about going in the military (personally I would rather see him at art school, but it will be his decision).  My question is will the military accept an asthmatic?  His asthma is well controlled, however he does take meds daily. I told him I would post that questions on this ng and see if anyone here has past military service while being asthmatic. Thanks, Patrice

Response:

Hello to the group, My son is almost 17 and was diagnosed with asthma 2 years ago.  As his high school graduation approaches next year, he has entertained ideas about going in the military (personally I would rather see him at art school, but it will be his decision).  My question is will the military accept an asthmatic?  His asthma is well controlled, however he does take meds daily. I told him I would post that questions on this ng and see if anyone here has past military service while being asthmatic. Thanks, Patrice

If is on Medication to control hsi Asthma, I can almost assure you that he would be disqualified from service.  Asthma andBasic school just do not mix.  Long runs and such and not being able to get medication will present a problem. Sorry to dash his hopes. David PS: If he still is not content, have him go talk to the recruiter. What is the worst that can happen?  They say No. TDC Keeper of the Fountain of the Nations

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Hello to the group, My son is almost 17 and was diagnosed with asthma 2 years ago.  As his high school graduation approaches next year, he has entertained ideas about going in the military (personally I would rather see him at art school, but it will be his decision).  My question is will the military accept an asthmatic?  His asthma is well controlled, however he does take meds daily. I told him I would post that questions on this ng and see if anyone here has past military service while being asthmatic. Thanks, Patrice

I would think that before one could even begin addressing your query, that is with any semblance of intelligence, it would make a difference to first know which country’s military your son is considering for enlistment. Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

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Question:

Herbal products may cause unexpected bleeding in surgical patients March 6, 2000 Anesthesiologists are concerned that patients undergoing surgery may risk unexpected bleeding and difficulty in blood clotting when they take ginseng, gingko biloba and other herbs within two weeks of their operations. The familiar question before surgery, "Are you taking any medications?" should be augmented with: "Are you taking any herbal remedies?" suggests Dr. John Neeldt, president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists. Although no scientific studies have been completed to prove a link between use of herbs and complications during anesthesia, there have been anecdotal reports. Neeldt said reports circulate among anesthesiologists of "adverse responses to blood pressure and pulse — unexpectedly brisk bleeding and not clotting well in patients who were taking these products." Feverfew, ginseng, gingko biloba, ginger, ephedra and garlic may adversely affect bleeding and blood pressure, according to Dr. Jessie Leak, an anesthesiologist with the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, Texas. St. John’s wort, valerian and kava kava may prolong the effects of some anesthetics and impair awakening from anesthesia, said Leak, who has been investigating the potential complications that could arise from specific herbal products. "Ultimately, the responsibility does fall upon the patient to let us know what you are taking," Leak said. "Certainly, if we ask and you fail to tell us, then … your safety may be compromised." To increase awareness of these concerns, the American Society of Anesthesiologists is distributing educational brochures to doctors and patients. A spokesperson for the American Herbal Products Association said patients should inform their physicians of herbal use.

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British Medical Journal BMJ 2000;320:47-49 ( 1 January ) For and against Should steroids be the first line treatment for asthma? Step one of the current British asthma guidelines recommends that inhaled short acting 2 agonists should be used as required. Some clinicians, including George Strube, a general practitioner from Crawley, believe that this step is unnecessary and that steroids should be introduced earlier. Michael Rudolph, a consultant physician from Ealing Hospital, defends the guidelines. http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7226/47 For George Strube, general practitioner. 33 Goffs Park Road, Crawley, West Sussex RH11 8AX Evidence for the inflammatory basis of asthma comes from bronchial biopsies, which show inflammation of the mucosa even in patients with mild intermittent asthma.1 Mucosal oedema and excess mucus production cause reduction in the lumen and obstruction to airflow. Bronchospasm occurs as the natural "foreign body" response to irritation caused by inflammation, the bronchi become hyperactive and the airflow is further reduced. Persistent inflammation may lead to structural changes in the airways, with reduction in lung function and irreversible airways obstruction.2 http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7226/47 A new approach to the treatment of asthma It should be clearly stated that steroids are the proper treatment for asthma and that bronchodilators must be held in reserve for emergencies. All newly diagnosed asthmatics should be given a high dose of inhaled corticosteroids,11 continued for 3 months, after which the dose should be gradually reduced to a point where symptoms are controlled and maximum lung function maintained with the minimum dose. Unless there is an emergency agonists should not be given initially but kept in reserve as rescue drugs. A satisfactory response over a few days will show the effectiveness of steroids, gain the patient’s confidence, and ensure compliance. This also acts as a reversibility test to find the maximum possible peak flow rate (or forced expiratory volume in 1 second and forced vital capacity in elderly patients), which can be used as the target for future control. This procedure allows better lung function to be achieved than when gradual increments in drugs are used, as in stepped care starting with  agonists (figure). The difficulty in assessing the severity of symptoms, in order to decide on treatment, is avoided as all patients receive inhaled corticosteroids as soon as the diagnosis of asthma is confirmed.George Strube http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7226/47 Against Michael Rudolf, consultant physician. Department of Respiratory Medicine, Ealing Hospital NHS Trust, Southall, Middlesex UB1 3HW Current British asthma guidelines emphasise the importance of gaining control of asthma as soon as possible with a moderately high dose of inhaled corticosteroid and then reducing to the minimal dose needed to maintain control.1 In a survey designed to assess the awareness of this recommendation, 82% of general practitioners and 74% of practice nurses reported that they did now start with high doses of inhaled corticosteroids.2 Shortly after publication of the guidelines it was suggested that inhaled corticosteroids should be used as first line treatment for all newly diagnosed patients irrespective of disease severity and that "as required" inhaled short acting 2 agonists (step 1) should no longer be recommended as initial therapy for "mild" disease.3 Although the British guidelines may not distinguish as clearly as they should between "intermittent" and "mild persistent" asthma (terms used in international asthma guidelines4 and both of which may be interpreted as "mild" disease), inhaled corticosteroids are unquestionably recommended for all adults and schoolchildren who need to use a  agonist more than once daily. Should step 1 now be abolished and all patients with newly diagnosed asthma, however mild or intermittent the disease, be immediately commenced on high dose inhaled corticosteroids? http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7226/47 Conclusion The enormous benefits of treatment with inhaled corticosteroids in asthma are not disputed, and the recommended use of short acting inhaled 2 agonists only for "as required" symptom relief is acknowledged in British and international guidelines. 1 4 The hypothesis that even earlier intervention with inhaled corticosteroids will prevent airway remodelling and the progressive decline in lung function is at present unproved, and it would be premature to abolish step 1 of the guidelines. If it is indeed true that "beta-agonists are widely regarded as the treatment for asthma with steroids as an optional extra," then it is not the guidelines that need altering but the misunderstanding of them.21Michael Rudolf http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7226/47

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Question:

I had my first PFT done today and have a copy of the "preliminary report."  The actual report won’t be ready for about a week. It will then be sent to my PCP and Pulmonary/Sleep M.D. at that point, with info to me after that, so I’m looking at a few weeks, more than likely, with no official word or enlightenment of this study. I’m hoping someone on this NG can shed some light on the codes and numbers that show up in the report.  I think I understand the stuff, but I want to be certain.  It doesn’t sound good to me. (Ack!) === Meds: Serevent/Flovent Diagnosis: OSA, Asthma, COPD BSA: 2.80 Post-Test Comments: Best valid FVC was reported, reproducibility was not met therefore; bronchodilators not given. All other reported results were valid and reproducible.                         Pre-Bronch                         Actual      Predicted      %/Predicted SPIROMETRY FVC (L)                 2.46        5.61           44 FEV1 (L)                1.82        4.62           39 FEV1/FVC (%)            74          82             — FEF 25-75% (L/sec)      1.40        4.80           29 FEF 50% (L/sec)         1.66        6.99           24 FIF 50% (L/sec)         2.92        5.37           54 MVV (L/min)             42          179            23 MEP (cmH2O)             22          237            9 MIP (cmH2O)             -67         -133           51 DIFFUSION DLCOunc (ml/min/mmHg)   31.85       29.60          108 DL/VA (ml/min/mmHg/L)   6.60        4.04           163 VA (L)                  4.83        7.32           66 INTERPRETATION: The FEV1 and FVC are reduced, byt the FEV1/FVC ratio is normal. The MVV is reduced even for the decreased FEV1. The diffusing capacity is normal. Visit a journalist’s website: coming soon to the Net near you: *** http://www.scoop0901.net *** also visit: http://www.newsguy.com for commentary, newsgroups, and more!

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With asthma you would expect to see the early lung flows (first air you breat out – from the large airways) to be well preserved and the mid flows (from the smaller airways) to be reduced. The early lung flow is the FEV1 – The volume of air you breath out in 1 second. The mid flows are the FEF 25-75 which is the volume of air you breathed out in the middle of the test. You can compare them by looking at the predicted values. Your lung test is most consistent with restricive lung disease, not so much asthma – although there was a small decrease in the mid flows over the decrease in the other flows. This is shown because all the flows are fairly symmentrically depressed. It would be interesting to see if they did volumes too. I would expect them all to be smaller than predicted. They did not test you after bronchodilators because the numbers they got from the different trials were not close enough to be able to tell if any change from the dilators was from chance or the medicine. You will have to talk to your doctor to go over your history, x-rays, etc to see what the causes and treatments for your restrictive lung disease may be. — CBI, M.D. Please note: It is impossible to accurately diagnose medical problems without seeing the patient and reviewing the entire history. These posts are intended to be helpful and informative. Always check with your doctor before following any advice given. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had my first PFT done today and have a copy of the "preliminary report." The actual report won’t be ready for about a week. It will then be sent to my PCP and Pulmonary/Sleep M.D. at that point, with info to me after that, so I’m looking at a few weeks, more than likely, with no official word or enlightenment of this study. I’m hoping someone on this NG can shed some light on the codes and numbers that show up in the report.  I think I understand the stuff, but I want to be certain.  It doesn’t sound good to me. (Ack!) === Meds: Serevent/Flovent Diagnosis: OSA, Asthma, COPD BSA: 2.80 Post-Test Comments: Best valid FVC was reported, reproducibility was not met therefore; bronchodilators not given. All other reported results were valid and reproducible.                         Pre-Bronch                         Actual      Predicted      %/Predicted SPIROMETRY FVC (L)                 2.46        5.61           44 FEV1 (L)                1.82        4.62           39 FEV1/FVC (%)            74          82             — FEF 25-75% (L/sec)      1.40        4.80           29 FEF 50% (L/sec)         1.66        6.99           24 FIF 50% (L/sec)         2.92        5.37           54 MVV (L/min)             42          179            23 MEP (cmH2O)             22          237            9 MIP (cmH2O)             -67         -133           51 DIFFUSION DLCOunc (ml/min/mmHg)   31.85       29.60          108 DL/VA (ml/min/mmHg/L)   6.60        4.04           163 VA (L)                  4.83        7.32           66 INTERPRETATION: The FEV1 and FVC are reduced, byt the FEV1/FVC ratio is normal. The MVV is reduced even for the decreased FEV1. The diffusing capacity is normal. Visit a journalist’s website: coming soon to the Net near you: *** http://www.scoop0901.net *** also visit: http://www.newsguy.com for commentary, newsgroups, and more!

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CBI: Thanks for taking the time to answer.  Your reply is **much** appreciated.  Puts me a little more at ease while waiting for the results to get to the PCP and Pulmonary/Sleep Doc. -dave With asthma you would expect to see the early lung flows (first air you breat out – from the large airways) to be well preserved and the mid flows (from the smaller airways) to be reduced. || snip || CBI, M.D. Please note: It is impossible to accurately diagnose medical problems without seeing the patient and reviewing the entire history. These posts are intended to be helpful and informative. Always check with your doctor before following any advice given.

Visit a journalist’s website: coming soon to the Net near you: *** http://www.scoop0901.net *** also visit: http://www.newsguy.com for commentary, newsgroups, and more!

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Your spirometry is missing the peak flow and states you had poor reproducability. With out looking at your flow-volume loop it would be hard for an Internet analysis to be accurate Your MEP is low and that and some of the spirometry could be consistent with neuromucular weakness, however I do not think that you blew out very long or very much during the spirometry maneuvers based upon the limited data presented. Repeat spirometry may be in order anton

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – am a 51 yr old Type II diabetic with coughing asthma. I take glucophage and test my blood in the mornings and evenings. I have had very good control ( ~108 mornings, ~118 evenings). In the past two days my asthma has flared up. I am doing nothing new, my diet hasn’t changed, I am taking no new medicine(except for a boat load of robitussin and extra puffs of ventolin) but now my sugar is right on the line ( 128 this morning – which I have *never* hit before). Is this a normal reaction to the strain of asthma on my body- is it the extra robitussin and ventolin? J. Freedman,Jr — Creation took 6 days because God didn’t have an installed base Before you buy.

The sugar in the Robitussin is probably the culprit.  However, the biggest offender I have found in this circle of problems is STEROIDS.  I take prednisone for Asthma and then my Glucose levels skyrocket.  I was diagnosed with Type  II Diabetes 2.5 years ago, when my glucose levels were at 495 and I couldn’t see anything and freaked out.  Glucophage and keeping Prednisone below 40 mgm in a given day seem to help.  I also found that splitting the dosage to 2 times a day (which isn’t recommended for adults) also helps keep down glucose levels. It also helps keep the needed dose of Prednisone down.  Hope this Helen

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 I am a 51 yr old Type II diabetic with coughing asthma. I take glucophage and test my blood in the mornings and evenings. I have had very good control ( ~108 mornings, ~118 evenings). In the past two days my asthma has flared up. I am doing nothing new, my diet hasn’t changed, I am taking no new medicine(except for a boat load of robitussin and extra puffs of ventolin) but now my sugar is right on the line ( 128 this morning – which I have *never* hit before). Is this a normal reaction to the strain of asthma on my body- is it the extra robitussin and ventolin?

Jerry, I am a 51 yr old Type II diabetic with a heart condition. I take Glucophage too. I didn’t find out about my bad ticker until after my diabetes was diagnosed. The point is when I started taking Zestril for high blood pressure & heart I developed a persistent scratchy throat and constant cough. I am told that this is a common side-effect. My doctor switched me to the much more expensive Cozaar. The scratchy throat and cough took two weeks to go away but it’s gone now. I am glad I get each one of my meds for $5 for approx. a three month supply. The Cozaar would have be over $100 if the price comparison the HMO pharmacy shows is correct. If I hadn’t had the response I did on Zestril my HMO would not have picked up the difference for Cozaar. Larry D. (51 T2 2yrs orals) =*= Things never change we just find out more about them. Purgamentum Init, Exit Purgamentum (G.I.G.O.) Before you buy.

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    I too am a 51 year old Type II diabetic but with asthma and intersticial lung disease.  The doctors told me that the large dose of prednisone that I need to take (between 20 mg and 60 mg) it has induced the diabetes.  Blood sugar control is very difficult for me.  My blood sugar will range from 95 to 350 at different times of the day.  If I take a small doseage of Glyburide (5 mg a day)  It sometimes will lower it to an acceptable level but at other times it will send me crashing very low.  Sometimes it has no effect at all.  It’s a real roller coaster ride!  I am very careful with my diet.  I’ve become a big time label reader!  I guess it comes with the territory… Good Luck,  Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I am a 51 yr old Type II diabetic with coughing asthma. I take glucophage and test my blood in the mornings and evenings. I have had very good control ( ~108 mornings, ~118 evenings). In the past two days my asthma has flared up. I am doing nothing new, my diet hasn’t changed, I am taking no new medicine(except for a boat load of robitussin and extra puffs of ventolin) but now my sugar is right on the line ( 128 this morning – which I have *never* hit before). Is this a normal reaction to the strain of asthma on my body- is it the extra robitussin and ventolin? J. Freedman,Jr — Creation took 6 days because God didn’t have an installed base Before you buy.

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My guess is that it’s the robitussin. Most cough syrups contain alot of sugar!

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In regard to Ace inhibitors, it is true that a cough is a side effect but it seems in my case, it has little to do with asthma.  I take 20 mg of Monopril daily and had been taking it long before ever being diagnosed with adult onset asthma. I never had a recurrent coughing episode for well over a year prior to the diagnosis of asthma therefore my doctor did not feel it was a contributing factor and neither did I.  Now that the asthma is under control, I once more am not coughing persistently.   As far as chemical or environmental irritants, are not most enviromental irritantants and/or asthma triggers chemical in origin? Always, pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I am not mistaken, Ventalin (not sure of spelling) is a steroid.  And, steroids elevate blood sugar. Also, do you know the cause of your asthma – chemical or invironmental irritants or what?  Are you by any chance taking blood pressure medicine – if you are taking an Ace inhibitor, one of the side effects can be a persistent cough which can irritate the bronchial tubes which can result in asthma. Have had the same problem.  The Robitussin has quite a bit of sugar.  My doctor had me get one called Diabetic Tussin.  Doesn’t raise my levels nearly as much. | I am a 51 yr old Type II diabetic with coughing asthma. I take | glucophage and test my blood in the mornings and evenings. I have had | very good control ( ~108 mornings, ~118 evenings). In the past two days | my asthma has flared up. I am doing nothing new, my diet hasn’t changed, | I am taking no new medicine(except for a boat load of robitussin and | extra puffs of ventolin) but now my sugar is right on the line ( 128 | this morning – which I have *never* hit before). Is this a normal | reaction to the strain of asthma on my body- is it the extra robitussin | and ventolin? | | J. Freedman,Jr | | — | Creation took 6 days because God didn’t | have an installed base | | | Before you buy.

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Ventolin is a name brand of albuterol, a short acting brocodilator ("rescue" inhaler), and is not a steroid.  The stress of breathing problems could well raise bg, though. Beth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I am not mistaken, Ventalin (not sure of spelling) is a steroid.  And, steroids elevate blood sugar. Also, do you know the cause of your asthma – chemical or invironmental irritants or what?  Are you by any chance taking blood pressure medicine – if you are taking an Ace inhibitor, one of the side effects can be a persistent cough which can irritate the bronchial tubes which can result in asthma. Have had the same problem.  The Robitussin has quite a bit of sugar. My doctor had me get one called Diabetic Tussin.  Doesn’t raise my levels nearly as much. | I am a 51 yr old Type II diabetic with coughing asthma. I take | glucophage and test my blood in the mornings and evenings. I have had | very good control ( ~108 mornings, ~118 evenings). In the past two days | my asthma has flared up. I am doing nothing new, my diet hasn’t changed, | I am taking no new medicine(except for a boat load of robitussin and | extra puffs of ventolin) but now my sugar is right on the line ( 128 | this morning – which I have *never* hit before). Is this a normal | reaction to the strain of asthma on my body- is it the extra robitussin | and ventolin? | | J. Freedman,Jr | | — | Creation took 6 days because God didn’t | have an installed base | | | Before you buy.

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If I am not mistaken, Ventalin (not sure of spelling) is a steroid.  And, steroids elevate blood sugar. Also, do you know the cause of your asthma – chemical or invironmental irritants or what?  Are you by any chance taking blood pressure medicine – if you are taking an Ace inhibitor, one of the side effects can be a persistent cough which can irritate the bronchial tubes which can result in asthma. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have had the same problem.  The Robitussin has quite a bit of sugar.  My doctor had me get one called Diabetic Tussin.  Doesn’t raise my levels nearly as much. | I am a 51 yr old Type II diabetic with coughing asthma. I take | glucophage and test my blood in the mornings and evenings. I have had | very good control ( ~108 mornings, ~118 evenings). In the past two days | my asthma has flared up. I am doing nothing new, my diet hasn’t changed, | I am taking no new medicine(except for a boat load of robitussin and | extra puffs of ventolin) but now my sugar is right on the line ( 128 | this morning – which I have *never* hit before). Is this a normal | reaction to the strain of asthma on my body- is it the extra robitussin | and ventolin? | | J. Freedman,Jr | | — | Creation took 6 days because God didn’t | have an installed base | | | Before you buy.

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 I am a 51 yr old Type II diabetic with coughing asthma. I take glucophage and test my blood in the mornings and evenings. I have had very good control ( ~108 mornings, ~118 evenings). In the past two days my asthma has flared up. I am doing nothing new, my diet hasn’t changed, I am taking no new medicine(except for a boat load of robitussin and extra puffs of ventolin) but now my sugar is right on the line ( 128 this morning – which I have *never* hit before). Is this a normal reaction to the strain of asthma on my body- is it the extra robitussin and ventolin? J. Freedman,Jr — Creation took 6 days because God didn’t have an installed base Before you buy.

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Have had the same problem.  The Robitussin has quite a bit of sugar.  My doctor had me get one called Diabetic Tussin.  Doesn’t raise my levels nearly as much. | I am a 51 yr old Type II diabetic with coughing asthma. I take | glucophage and test my blood in the mornings and evenings. I have had | very good control ( ~108 mornings, ~118 evenings). In the past two days | my asthma has flared up. I am doing nothing new, my diet hasn’t changed, | I am taking no new medicine(except for a boat load of robitussin and | extra puffs of ventolin) but now my sugar is right on the line ( 128 | this morning – which I have *never* hit before). Is this a normal | reaction to the strain of asthma on my body- is it the extra robitussin | and ventolin? | | J. Freedman,Jr | | — | Creation took 6 days because God didn’t | have an installed base | | | Before you buy.

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