Question:

Still your typical charming, sophisticated self, I see.  Big surprise. Tegan  :)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Typical trash talking Tegan waltzes in, shits on the rug and then proclaims there is shit on the rug. Clever dog! BirdTribe *hugs* Tegan. Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :) Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—– — * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com  http://www.mosthost.net

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Response:

We grow nasturtiums in the summer. I use them in salads, and I freeze them inside ice cubes to decorate drinks. They are very pretty. Ours are Orange, and quite peppery. We grow just about everything. I dry quite a bit of herbs for use throughout the winter. I also freeze quite a bit. I didn’t know about any healing properties in nasties. Do you think drying, or freezing them would effect them poorly? I find with most herbs, (rosemary, thyme,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Welcome to the group, Aisling!  :) It is a bit rough around here at times.  I’ve been here for about 3 years, off and on…I’d say right now is the worst I’ve seen it.  Maybe we can all start a decent conversation, and ignore the trolls who might post to those threads? I’ll start…since I’m into herbs, what is your favorite herb and why? What have you learned about it in your own, personal studies?  Have you used it? If so, what for and what were the results? I can’t honestly choose a favorite herb…but one of my favorites are nasturtium flowers.  They’re totally delicious (sort of a honey taste immediately followed by a peppery taste), they’re also helpful in boosting your immune system.  If you’re coming down with a cold or flu, a few nasturtium flowers a day (up to 5) will keep the cold/flu much milder than normal.  Sometimes it knocks it out completely (colds) if you’re lucky. I accidently discovered they are an awesome hang-over cure too. Especially the Chinese nasturtiums (which are a deep scarlett color, and much stronger tasting than regular nasturtiums).  If you eat a couple of them before going to bed they’ll keep a hang over from happening.  I think I need to do more experimenting with nasturtiums and hang-overs…  It’s been since last April that I drank enough to use them.  ;( Many Blessings, Tegan  :) I’m new here too, and I have to agree that the behavior of certain regular posters around here leaves much to be desired. Do you lot seriously have nothing better to do with your lives then sit around insulting one another? I realise that theres one person who’s particularly provokative, but your tactics are all wrong. She’ll only continue to be a pain in the ass if you keep justifying what she says by replying to her posts. Then again, perhaps you enjoy this childish battle of insults, but personally I grew out of such playground politics a long time ago, and I think the majority of readers did too. Stop cluttering up cyberspace with drivel, or at the very least, take your pathetic bickering somewhere else. Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :) Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—– —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Hey Ho Tego! Gosh, long time no talk to. <bg Now you are here so that will help get good discussions going. *If* we can keep BT from sniffing your butt! <shhh…..I think he actually likes you. You know what they say about them little boys who pull braids. They get older but not mature(r) and yank chains instead Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne

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I have a recipe from Scott Cunningham. It is Beltane Marigold Custard. It sounds really good and the slugs love marigold flowers even though they smell pretty bitter and stinky. Ever tasted the flowers? Which would be better to use? Are we talking about the multi colored orange/red kind here or the bigger flowered yellow ones? Anyone? Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Welcome to the group, Aisling!  :) It is a bit rough around here at times.  I’ve been here for about 3 years, off and on…I’d say right now is the worst I’ve seen it.  Maybe we can all start a decent conversation, and ignore the trolls who might post to those threads? I’ll start…since I’m into herbs, what is your favorite herb and why?  What have you learned about it in your own, personal studies?  Have you used it? If so, what for and what were the results? I can’t honestly choose a favorite herb…but one of my favorites are nasturtium flowers.  They’re totally delicious (sort of a honey taste immediately followed by a peppery taste), they’re also helpful in boosting your immune system.  If you’re coming down with a cold or flu, a few nasturtium flowers a day (up to 5) will keep the cold/flu much milder than normal.  Sometimes it knocks it out completely (colds) if you’re lucky.  ;) I accidently discovered they are an awesome hang-over cure too.  Especially the Chinese nasturtiums (which are a deep scarlett color, and much stronger tasting than regular nasturtiums).  If you eat a couple of them before going to bed they’ll keep a hang over from happening.  I think I need to do more experimenting with nasturtiums and hang-overs…  It’s been since last April that I drank enough to use them.  ;( Many Blessings, Tegan  :)

Tegan, Mine hands down is Peppermint. I have Crones disease and really helps keep my gut calm. Sami ICQ 102400602 FYI: In my kill filter are Rhyanon, Rogue, de Valois My silence to their posts is not an agreement, I ignore them.

Response:

Its not so much the dog shitting on the carpet thats a problem BT. Thats a natural act…its those damn other dogs that come running up right behind them sniffing it out and eating it up even though they are well fed. The order of acts defines and seperates out who has class and who doesnt. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne

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I use to complain about the people who come in here and complain right off the bat. Then I decided to look at it from another angle. Not everyone who comes in here is a newbie. I wasnt….none of you who claim to be seasoned, veteran magickals and teachers were. Yet few of us have been here longer then 3 years…more of us a year or less. This place is called alt.reigion.wicca. The web based definition..a group discussion of wicca. No place does it mention or define arw as *assholes, pricks and other private part people..take out their frustrations, anger and general hate of genders in the name of their gods and goddess and magickal and spiritual religion.* To stumble upon this place and be new to arw but not to Wicca or Witchcraft, if one really has a understanding of the craft and universal law…..in all fairness, I can see why people come in here and bitch immediatly. Thems just my thoughts! Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne

Response:

Welcome to the group, Aisling!  :) It is a bit rough around here at times.  I’ve been here for about 3 years, off and on…I’d say right now is the worst I’ve seen it.  Maybe we can all start a decent conversation, and ignore the trolls who might post to those threads? I’ll start…since I’m into herbs, what is your favorite herb and why? What have you learned about it in your own, personal studies?  Have you used it? If so, what for and what were the results?

I like Nutmeg and Cinnamon… Yeah, I know – common kitchen spices… I’ve used these two to induce an altered consciousness. I’ve made a tea with the two of them and added a shot of rum – it actually tasted pretty good. *Pvlvlvativs* http://wisedemon.homestead.com ICQ: 85308877

Response:

Welcome to the group, Aisling!  :) It is a bit rough around here at times.  I’ve been here for about 3 years, off and on…I’d say right now is the worst I’ve seen it.  Maybe we can all start a decent conversation, and ignore the trolls who might post to those threads? I’ll start…since I’m into herbs, what is your favorite herb and why?  What have you learned about it in your own, personal studies?  Have you used it? If so, what for and what were the results? I can’t honestly choose a favorite herb…but one of my favorites are nasturtium flowers.  They’re totally delicious (sort of a honey taste immediately followed by a peppery taste), they’re also helpful in boosting your immune system.  If you’re coming down with a cold or flu, a few nasturtium flowers a day (up to 5) will keep the cold/flu much milder than normal.  Sometimes it knocks it out completely (colds) if you’re lucky.  ;) I accidently discovered they are an awesome hang-over cure too.  Especially the Chinese nasturtiums (which are a deep scarlett color, and much stronger tasting than regular nasturtiums).  If you eat a couple of them before going to bed they’ll keep a hang over from happening.  I think I need to do more experimenting with nasturtiums and hang-overs…  It’s been since last April that I drank enough to use them.  ;( Many Blessings, Tegan  :)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new here too, and I have to agree that the behavior of certain regular posters around here leaves much to be desired. Do you lot seriously have nothing better to do with your lives then sit around insulting one another? I realise that theres one person who’s particularly provokative, but your tactics are all wrong. She’ll only continue to be a pain in the ass if you keep justifying what she says by replying to her posts. Then again, perhaps you enjoy this childish battle of insults, but personally I grew out of such playground politics a long time ago, and I think the majority of readers did too. Stop cluttering up cyberspace with drivel, or at the very least, take your pathetic bickering somewhere else. Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :) Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Response:

I’m new here too, and I have to agree that the behavior of certain regular posters around here leaves much to be desired. Do you lot seriously have nothing better to do with your lives then sit around insulting one another?

Thumping on trolls is a respectable passtime. I realise that theres one person who’s particularly provokative, but your tactics are all wrong. She’ll only continue to be a pain in the ass if you keep justifying what she says by replying to her posts.

All tactics have been tried. Conduct a deja search. Then again, perhaps you enjoy this childish battle of insults, but personally I grew out of such playground politics a long time ago, and I think the majority of readers did too. Stop cluttering up cyberspace with drivel, or at the very least, take your pathetic bickering somewhere else.

Why is it that every newbie who comes here ultimately resorts to the same childish behaviour they bitch about? Application of ‘Whine-anon Tactics’ seems to be the SOP for newbies. — Air muir ’s air tir, Sean of Clan Uisdin If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi’ a dram o’ Glen Ord.                 … The heroes of the race of Conn are dead,                 How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them!                 We shall not live long after them,                 Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood! Cathal MacMhuirich "Well, I’m sick of this room and everyone in it!" – Bender "Everything’s gone wrong since Canada came along!" – MAC (Mothers against Canada)

Response:

Yeah, maybe—but it will never make the Olympics — jimd A horned and tusked purple thing went racing along the ridge, pursued by a hairless orange-skinned creature with long claws and a forked tail tail. Both were wailing in different keys. I nodded. It was just one damned thing after another. (Trumps of Doom by Roger Zelazny )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new here too, and I have to agree that the behavior of certain regular posters around here leaves much to be desired. Do you lot seriously have nothing better to do with your lives then sit around insulting one another? Thumping on trolls is a respectable passtime. I realise that theres one person who’s particularly provokative, but your tactics are all wrong. She’ll only continue to be a pain in the ass if you keep justifying what she says by replying to her posts. All tactics have been tried. Conduct a deja search. Then again, perhaps you enjoy this childish battle of insults, but personally I grew out of such playground politics a long time ago, and I think the majority of readers did too. Stop cluttering up cyberspace with drivel, or at the very least, take your pathetic bickering somewhere else. Why is it that every newbie who comes here ultimately resorts to the same childish behaviour they bitch about? Application of ‘Whine-anon Tactics’ seems to be the SOP for newbies. — Air muir ’s air tir, Sean of Clan Uisdin If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi’ a dram o’ Glen Ord. … The heroes of the race of Conn are dead, How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them! We shall not live long after them, Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood! Cathal MacMhuirich "Well, I’m sick of this room and everyone in it!" – Bender "Everything’s gone wrong since Canada came along!" – MAC (Mothers against Canada)

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*~*~*Hugs*~*~*, renner.  Still looking for Alice?  heh Love and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *hugs* Tegan. Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :) Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Response:

I guess my new browser’s only set up for reading flame threads, lol.  Guess I’ll have to tweak the settings a bit…  ;) Happy New Year to you too, Sweet.  I’ve missed you…you don’t call any more…write…come over…feed the fish…water the plants…have pancakes with me…  hehe  I’ve been doing good, just extremely busy.  :O  How’s about you?  How were your Holidays? Are you still on icq?  I should be back on icq soon (meaning in a couple weeks).  heh  Please say hello to the peeps who are wondering if I’m still alive?  ;) Love and Sweet Blessings, Dear hY, Tegan  :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ~ Says you. I am having some good conversations with Relayer and a few others. How are you doing? People have been asking about you. They miss you or something. Happy New Year Tegan.. to you and yours. Many sweet blessings to you. hy Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :) Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Response:

I’m new here too, and I have to agree that the behavior of certain regular posters around here leaves much to be desired. Do you lot seriously have nothing better to do with your lives then sit around insulting one

another? NO! THEY DON’T! I realise that theres one person who’s particularly provokative, but your tactics are all wrong. She’ll only continue to be a pain in the ass if you keep justifying what she says by replying to her posts. Then again, perhaps you enjoy this childish battle of insults, but personally I grew out of such playground politics a long time ago, and I think the majority of readers did too. Stop cluttering up cyberspace with drivel, or at the very least, take your pathetic bickering somewhere else.

This is sensible advice that comes around regularly. Alas, it has never done any good for ARW. Welcome, BTW. Relayer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :) Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

I’m new here too, and I have to agree that the behavior of certain regular posters around here leaves much to be desired. Do you lot seriously have nothing better to do with your lives then sit around insulting one another? I realise that theres one person who’s particularly provokative, but your tactics are all wrong. She’ll only continue to be a pain in the ass if you keep justifying what she says by replying to her posts. Then again, perhaps you enjoy this childish battle of insults, but personally I grew out of such playground politics a long time ago, and I think the majority of readers did too. Stop cluttering up cyberspace with drivel, or at the very least, take your pathetic bickering somewhere else.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :) Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Typical trash talking Tegan waltzes in, shits on the rug and then proclaims there is shit on the rug. Clever dog! BirdTribe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *hugs* Tegan. Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :) Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

– * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com  http://www.mosthost.net

Response:

*hugs* Tegan.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :) Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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~ Says you. I am having some good conversations with Relayer and a few others. How are you doing? People have been asking about you. They miss you or something. Happy New Year Tegan.. to you and yours. Many sweet blessings to you. hy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :) Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne

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Heya Sistah!!  :)  *~*~*Hugs*~*~* Good advice, as per usual.  Looking over the "posts" around here…never thought it could happen, but the ng’s degenerated even further.  Not so much as a decent poem left.  *sigh*  Oh well, there’s always hope.  ;) Road trip?  hehe Loves and Sweet Blessings, Tegan  :)

Hi..There is some Diamonds in the rough posts here. Mostly…this place is a Major embarrasement to Wiccans, Witches and the like mind. You may want to try the moderated groups if you are looking to learn and dont want to wade through three quarters of the posts that are belittling and vulgar.  The best to you though. Aine – *High* Priestess Vixen and Warrior Goddess Sleep for a little, a very small while–And fear nothing.– from the Tain Bo Cuailagne

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Response:

Hi everyone.I am new to this group.I am 20 years old.I want to learn as much as a can about wicca so i chooses this group because there are lots of postings here.I have 4 cats there names are meowzee,casper,flipsy,tiger and axl.I am working on my website and will start a online cove.Blessed be James

So call you James? or Karen? Hi ! Welcome and good luck. Kerry (Bisquits and Angel are my cats, Gravy is my dog and I have a bird with no name, LOL)

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Hi everyone.I am new to this group.I am 20 years old.I want to learn as much as a can about wicca so i chooses this group because there are lots of postings here.I have 4 cats there names are meowzee,casper,flipsy,tiger and axl.I am working on my website and will start a online cove.Blessed be James

Welcome! My cat is named Merlin Sami

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Hi everyone.I am new to this group.I am 20 years old.I want to learn as much as a can about wicca so i chooses this group because there are lots of postings here.I have 4 cats there names are meowzee,casper,flipsy,tiger and axl.I am working on my website and will start a online cove.Blessed be James

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Hi everyone.I am new to this group.I am 20 years old.I want to learn as much as a can about wicca so i chooses this group because there are lots of postings here.I have 4 cats there names are meowzee,casper,flipsy,tiger and axl.I am working on my website and will start a online cove.Blessed be James

Who is ames? If you are James, Who is Karen.. Welcome, anyway. Relayer (3 cats,Charlie, Loki and Emma)

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Welcome to ARW, James.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Dave, I’d thought you quit posting.  But anyway… I had quit, but I decided that if I could point out links to people who asked for them, or saw matters of fact that were wrong I’d point em out, that’s all. Nice to see you back.  However what you see as "wrong" may not be the case, so if you want to point out what you think is "wrong", you should expect to be challenged if indeed it’s not wrong. Only the facts ma’am.

And thank you for correcting them–I will admit when I’m wrong (and at 1 am that is more likely to happen). Claim: "Now Gerson therapy is unique in that there is a paper in the scientific literature about it, done by proponents" Fact: It is not unique in that respect, there are other papers ( i.e. Gonzalez, plus several other Gerson papers ).

However there are relatively few rigorous scientific studies/clinical trials about altmed methods in cancer in the peer-reviewed literature in general, if one looks at Medline for example.  I had 1902 hits using "alternative medicine cancer".  It seems a lot, and I’m sure it will blossom, but from my quick scan it appeared a large number were op-eds or letters.  But when I used MESH browsing for "alternative medicine", "cancer" (neoplasm in MESH-ese) and "clinical trial", it came up with only 37 hits.  Let’s double that for any studies it missed (and it did miss the Hildenbrand and Gonzalez references) but still out of 10 million citations, I would say that is unique.  My fervent hope is that there will be many more in the future. Claim: " But it was shown to be so shoddily done, they reportedly pulled it as a reference from their own organization’s website " Fact: It was not pulled, it’s still there. I gave the link.

It still doesn’t negate the fact that it isn’t a very good paper.  If they could repeat it, with more judicious comparisons, it would be an improvement.  (That and actually writing it more clearly.) Claim: " Another example would be Anne Frahm’s "A Cancer Battle Plan".  How many people know that she died of cancer in 1998?  Yet her husband has continued the franchise.." OK: Yes that’s a fact. I shouldn’t have challenged it, the remission is irrelevant.

We don’t know what was responsible for the remission though, do we? Point being, the "plan" is promoted on questionable and possibly misleading claims–I find fault with that.  If we talk freedom of choice, then having all available information to make that choice is prudent. ( I was draw … ;-( )

T.

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I refuse to be drawn. dave Before you buy.

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Hey Dave, I’d thought you quit posting.  But anyway… I had quit, but I decided that if I could point out links to people who asked for them, or saw matters of fact that were wrong I’d point em out, that’s all. Nice to see you back.  However what you see as "wrong" may not be the case, so if you want to point out what you think is "wrong", you should expect to be challenged if indeed it’s not wrong.

Only the facts ma’am. Claim: "Now Gerson therapy is unique in that there is a paper in the scientific literature about it, done by proponents" Fact: It is not unique in that respect, there are other papers ( i.e. Gonzalez, plus several other Gerson papers ). Claim: " But it was shown to be so shoddily done, they reportedly pulled it as a reference from their own organization’s website " Fact: It was not pulled, it’s still there. I gave the link. Claim: " Another example would be Anne Frahm’s "A Cancer Battle Plan".  How many people know that she died of cancer in 1998?  Yet her husband has continued the franchise.." OK: Yes that’s a fact. I shouldn’t have challenged it, the remission is irrelevant. ( I was draw … ;-( ) Before you buy.

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[snip] Again, think, Dave, cancer is dreaded enough that doctors would use any treatment that works.  Despite what any pharmaceutical company would think.  

You are grossly oversimplifying the matter here, T.   Most physicians would indeed want to use any treatment that works. But if they started using treatments that were not "approved" by the Powers That Be, they well know that they could be in jeopardy of losing their license to practice medicine.  EVEN IF those treatments really worked, they KNEW they really worked, and their patients wanted them to use them. If you dispute this, take it up with, say, Dr. Robert Atkins (1-800-2atkins) or any of a number of other doctors who have run into this situation. Politics is a LOT stronger than science, T.  When you’re older, you’ll finally come to understand that. -John S.

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Hey Dave, I’d thought you quit posting.  But anyway…

I had quit, but I decided that if I could point out links to people who asked for them, or saw matters of fact that were wrong I’d point em out, that’s all. I don’t want to get into the debates. So I’m happy if there were any matters of fact that I pointed out that were wrong, or any links I gave that were broken, let me know I’ll retract them. wrt Ann Frahm, it’s quite fair to point out she had a bone marrow transplant, but I thought the remission was worth pointing out to. Now we have a more balanced picture rather than "she died" which is what I think you originally said. Now let the reader decide. wrt Gerson, I was only pointing out the fact that there was more than one study in the literature. ( There is also the Leichner study at the university of Gratz, and a JAMA paper that I forgot, both referenced by the Spain Ward report ). Again I didn’t want to get into debate, just to point out that they existed. You can do all the trashing you like on them, I don’t intend to defend them, just to point out that they exist. "The full paper is worse than the abstract, Dave.  The Hildenbrand study…." you didn’t read what I wrote. I referred to the *Kelley* therapy ( Gonzalez ), so the diatribe against Gerson was wasted. It is initeresting in that the FULL Gonzalez paper answers some of the criticism I’ve seen here from people who have not even read the paper! Let me repeat, I’m referring to the *Gonzalez* pancreatic cancer study. Feel free to trash that study, but please read the full study first. And please read what I write more carefully in future. wrt Spain Ward as a historian, it is a matter of opinion as to whether science is always "pure" or if there is ever a political context. [snip]  For what it’s worth I don’t think laetrile works either. But I may be wrong. Again, think, Dave, cancer is dreaded enough that doctors would use any treatment that works.  Despite what any pharmaceutical company would think.  I think we agree that patients deserve more than the current situation allows–but that goes even more strongly for alternative medicine.

Again, please read what I wrote. I DON’T think laetrile works. You want me to think again???? dave T.

Before you buy.

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Hey Dave, I’d thought you quit posting.  But anyway… I had quit, but I decided that if I could point out links to people who asked for them, or saw matters of fact that were wrong I’d point em out, that’s all.

Nice to see you back.  However what you see as "wrong" may not be the case, so if you want to point out what you think is "wrong", you should expect to be challenged if indeed it’s not wrong. I don’t want to get into the debates. So I’m happy if there were any matters of fact that I pointed out that were wrong, or any links I gave that were broken, let me know I’ll retract them.

You do realize that anything you write in a public forum is open to debate whether you want it or not?  (Don’t you love how these take on lives of their own?) wrt Ann Frahm, it’s quite fair to point out she had a bone marrow transplant, but I thought the remission was worth pointing out to. Now we have a more balanced picture rather than "she died" which is what I think you originally said. Now let the reader decide.

No, I said that she died of breast cancer although her book is still promoted as being a lifesaver.  That she had a significant remission is wonderful.  But every supporter of Frahm’s plan leads the reader to assume, it was the diet that led to the remission.  One promoter has continually made this false conclusion on the newsgroups.  However, that conclusion cannot be drawn from the available information.  That is worth pointing out to the reader.  And it’s profiting off that false conclusion to which I object.  If indeed Frahm’s plan works, let’s test it properly with a few randomized controlled studies and look at objective measures of survival.  Don’t make claims the available evidence can’t justify.  It’s pathetic that we take this advice for everything we do consumer-wise, except for health care. wrt Gerson, I was only pointing out the fact that there was more than one study in the literature. ( There is also the Leichner study at the university of Gratz, and a JAMA paper that I forgot, both referenced by the Spain Ward report ). Again I didn’t want to get into debate, just to point out that they existed. You can do all the trashing you like on them, I don’t intend to defend them, just to point out that they exist.

We know your leanings just by your use of the word "trashing".  However it’s part and parcel of critical inquiry.  People don’t like that but otherwise we’d be more like automatons than we already are.  Scientists are taught to evaluate information critically.  That means picking apart a study to find its flaws in order to make suggestions for improvement.  (As it happens the Hildenbrand study can use a lot of improvement.)  If that is "trashing" to you, so be it.  The whole function of peer review is to criticize (or "trash", to you) a study before it’s made public, so that glaring errors are corrected and that the claims made are justifiable by the evidence. I find a lot of altmed supporters don’t like that–digging deeper into their claims usually finds something fishy. "The full paper is worse than the abstract, Dave.  The Hildenbrand study…." you didn’t read what I wrote. I referred to the *Kelley* therapy ( Gonzalez ), so the diatribe against Gerson was wasted.

The Hildenbrand study has been brought up in defence of the Gerson method before.  However, IMHO what *you* wrote, could have been taken either way, to mean either the Hildenbrand study or the Gonzalez study. (One has to be precise on Usenet.) It is initeresting in that the FULL Gonzalez paper answers some of the criticism I’ve seen here from people who have not even read the paper! Let me repeat, I’m referring to the *Gonzalez* pancreatic cancer study. Feel free to trash that study, but please read the full study first.

One major concern is that it is based only on 11 patients.  Such "best-case" studies can’t make any claim beyond "looks like it needs further study".  People should take his results skeptically because it was based only on 11 patients.   So I’m eagerly awaiting the results of the clinical trial. And please read what I write more carefully in future.

Be more precise in what you write in the future and we’ll both be happy.  What you wrote was: Gerson therapy is not "unique" in this respect. There is a paper outlining results of the Keley Therapy in the literature. You may argue about what that paper proves ( have you read the FULL paper, or just the abstract??? ). The full paper addresses some of the criticisms I have seen from those who have merely read the abstract.

"That" to me could have referred to either Hildenbrand or Gonzalez, or both.  I took it to mean Hildenbrand mainly. wrt Spain Ward as a historian, it is a matter of opinion as to whether science is always "pure" or if there is ever a political context.

Science deconstructionists love this argument.  Of course science is fraught with human frailty–that’s why the concept of randomized controlled studies exists, and why that is considered superior over other types of scientific studies.  Science, more than any other method of thought, is fully cognizant of the types of bias that exist.  I know what they say about history being written by the victor.  But why should Ms. Ward’s motives be any more pure than any other person involved in the OTA report?  She may fully believe, but have you ever considered, the existing evidence may have led her to believe wrongly?  For what it’s worth I don’t think laetrile works either. But I may be wrong. Again, think, Dave, cancer is dreaded enough that doctors would use any treatment that works.  Despite what any pharmaceutical company would think.  I think we agree that patients deserve more than the current situation allows–but that goes even more strongly for alternative medicine. Again, please read what I wrote. I DON’T think laetrile works. You want me to think again????

But of course laetrile works, Dave–it works by killing the patient. (sarcasm off)  What most people don’t realize about altmed, is that so much of it depends on thoroughly disproven methods, like laetrile.  But laetrile rears its head every decade, in yet another reincarnation (like Vitamin B17), as if thinking, maybe yet another name change will make it acceptable.  That altmed insistence on things disproven, dilutes the importance of potentially more useful methods.  The altmed insistence on making claims the evidence can’t justify, also serves to dilute the importance of more useful methods.  And how can patients make an informed choice regarding altmed methods in the end, when such evidence is lacking?  These are the points we have to consider.  Gonzalez at least is attempting to rectify that wrt Kelley therapy but there’s a long way to go for everyone else. T.

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Hey Dave, I’d thought you quit posting.  But anyway… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] You have to be exceedingly cautious regarding books published in the popular press.  There’s no guarantee the information is current or even accurate. The only reviews such books generally go through are for spelling and grammar. Chances are if you see it in Chapters, it hasn’t gone through any rigorous medical or scientific reviews designed to ensure that the information, advice etc is valid.  These books are designed to make money.  One book that immediately comes to mind is "Sharks Don’t Get Cancer".  Sharks do get cancer, even in the cartilage.  But I doubt we’ll see a retraction of that book any time soon.  Another example would be Anne Frahm’s "A Cancer Battle Plan".  How many people know that she died of cancer in 1998?  Yet her husband has continued the franchise. I believe she achieved a 10 year remission from "terminal" cancer before she died. If this is true, I think it’s worth mentioning.

And so is the fact that she underwent extensive conventional therapy beforehand, including a bone marrow transplant (that incidentally wiped out the tumor at that time).  Her claim for devising her "treatment" was that "doctors gave up" when it was more a matter of her bone marrow taking longer to recover than expected.  Longterm survival is not unknown after extensive treatment, and it is known that breast cancer is unique in that it can recur after a long disease-free remission.  Point being, ALL sides of the story must be mentioned for anyone to evaluate any of these methods fairly.  That is if you really want true informed choice. Gerson therapy is not "unique" in this respect. There is a paper outlining results of the Keley Therapy in the literature. You may argue about what that paper proves ( have you read the FULL paper, or just the abstract??? ). The full paper addresses some of the criticisms I have seen from those who have merely read the abstract.

The full paper is worse than the abstract, Dave.  The Hildenbrand study is shoddy science.  For example, of 249 patients treated, only 153 were evaluable.  That means they lost almost half their treatment group.  For scientific studies of this type, more is better.  A retrospective study is not as strong as other studies, preferably a prospective randomized study.  Their standards of evaluation were quite different for surviving patients vs. deceased patients–any standard of evaluation must be the same throughout the study, for both groups, to have any valid meaning. Why did they choose the comparison groups that they did?  There are literally thousands of studies in the melanoma literature, and they give no clear reason for their choice–which indeed suggests that they chose those studies in light of making their treatment look good.  And they seemed to group patients in whatever order they pleased, rather than by the more usual tumor stage assignations–which make the results even harder to interpret. BTW, what does "a cathartic with no known clinical side effects" mean, in reference to castor oil?  A cathartic causes diarrhea, Dave, by definition.  Not a good thing for cancer patients. If you’re referring to the Gonzalez study re Kelley therapy, may I point out there are some concerns about that one as well.  That it received NIH funding is brought out as a talisman by altmed supporters, but it’s results that matter. Now Gerson therapy is unique in that there is a paper in the scientific literature about it, done by proponents.  But it was shown to be so shoddily done, they reportedly pulled it as a reference from their own organization’s website. I don’t know who reported that it has been pulled. Here’s the reference. AFAIK it was never "pulled". Please check facts and don’t report hearsay. http://www.gerson-research.org/docs/HildenbrandGLG-1995-1/index.html

Why they have such a poorly done study up, is beyond me.   There are other papers in the literature about the Gerson therapy.

That are essentially anecdotal.  Anecdotes should always come with a huge disclaimer–results not typical. "The story of Ian Gawler", Australian Medical Journal 1978,2,433. "British oncologists evaluate Gerson cancer treatment", The Lancet,336 (8716), 18 Sep 1990. also Ward PS. History of the Gerson therapy. Contract report prepared for the U.S. Office of Technology Assessment. U.S. Government Printing Office, 1988 http://www.gerson-research.org/docs/WardPS-1988-1/index.html Quoted from the above page..

And only her side of the story is presented here.  FWIW, the whole OTA report can be found on the Quackwatch home page.  It’s worth reading. It’s far less hostile to these therapies than the below would suggest.  NCCAM was established for the very fact of proper evaluation of these methods.  With all due respect to Ms. Ward, what scientific training would she have as an historian?  The difficulty is separating out anecdote from real effects–something which history has taught us, is hard to do without some objective means.  Science is the most objective means to do that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The most serious problems stemmed from relations with the lower-level staff members, who were actually writing the report. There was simply no reservoir of trust between them and the subjects of their inquiry. The staff writers routinely downplayed or even suppressed information that was at all favorable towards alternative treatments. The most egregious example involved Patricia Spain Ward, Ph.D., campus historian of the University of Illinois, Chicago, who had been hired as a contractor by the OTA. Dr. Ward was perceived as a skeptic about alternative medicine because she had written a negative paper on Andrew Ivy, M.D., proponent of the unconventional drug Krebiozen, who had once been president of her medical school. But Dr. Ward took the assignment because she was concerned about the lack of adequate evaluation of such treatments. She thought that OTA "with its sterling reputation for courage and fairness, would again capture the gratitude of the nation by producing a truly disinterested, unbiased treatment in the troubled realm of unconventional cancer treatment." By 1987, she reflected, "hostility and distrust so thoroughly pervaded both sides of this chasm…that only an agency of OTAs standing could hope to bridge it" (Speech to OTA Advisory Board, March 9, 1990). In good faith, Dr. Ward prepared reports for the office on three controversial treatments–the Gerson diet, the Hoxsey herbal treatment, and the more conventional immune stimulant, BCG.

Also FWIW, BCG is medically accepted and used for treatment of bladder cancer.  You can find dozens of studies regarding BCG and bladder cancer on Medline.  OTOH, very few exist for either Gerson or Hoxsey treatment on Medline.  Lumping these therapies together which have different standards of evidence, is concerning. She herself was surprised to find that there was considerable scientific support for the potential benefit of all three of these treatments.

Certainly for BCG. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But the OTA staff apparently had a different sort of conclusion in mind, and refused to circulate these reports to its own Advisory Council members. In a letter to Ward, they claimed these were too positive in tone. Under protest from board members, the reports were finally released. Yet internal reports that were downright hostile to alternatives were circulated to panel members unimpeded. The attempted suppression of Ward’s reports was a defining moment. Not surprisingly, hostility towards the staff, and between various board members, broke out into the open at the advisory panel meeting of September 28, 1988. The staff had circulated a partial draft of the final report to the advisors but "had asked the panel not to circulate this draft to others." As it turned out, they later complained, "it was widely copied and circulated, and a large number of observers at the panel meeting had copies."  A close analysis of that paper suggests that the therapy does not provide an advantage. I’m not a statastician or researcher. I haven’t see a formal "trashing" with the right of rebuttal accorded. You may be right, you may not.

Use your common sense then, Dave, and look at the numbers.  Heck even from the abstract it was obvious a lot of cherry-picking was going on.  The main text of the paper confirms it.  Comparing 15 to 15,000?  Like Elks Club members to an entire town. Redefining stages of the disease? That’s the type of "science" used to justify some of these alt methods. IMHO weak science is worse than no science. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (At the very least the authors should have been ashamed of attempting to compare results from 15 highly selected patients, to a 15,000-strong cancer registry.) And, health food stores may not be the best venue for information either–think of the potential conflict of interest there.  (There are reasons why doctors aren’t allowed to sell pharmaceuticals from their offices.) We are all newbies to this, and I am looking for info, to see if anything has actually worked for real people. For example, not one laetrile user has responded to this post. My bro-in-law ( a thoracic surgeon) told me that if something like B-17 actually worked against cancer, people would know about it – thats the kind of people I am looking for. I don’t intend to waste time on foofarah and hoakum. I *really* appreciate you all taking the time to answer. Actually if any of this stuff really worked, we wouldn’t need to rely on anecdote and testimonial for evidence–we’d have the well-controlled studies to prove it.  And your brother-in-law is

… read more »

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"Why not?" use ‘alternative treatments.  In 12 years of nursing cancer patients EVERY SINGLE PATIENT who was using or had tried alternative therapies has died. To be fair…

To be fair, I’d like to say that I have had the exact OPPOSITE experience. Of the five cancer patients I have known personally, four are deceased. They all four followed their doctor’s advice diligently and all four died within a year or two of diagnosis by doing so. The fifth is still alive, healthy as a horse, about eight or ten years after his bout with cancer.  He is the *ONLY ONE* of the five who did his own research, and who decided to decline the chemotherapy that was recommended (after having surgery and a brief round of radiotherapy), and to go on a Gerson-style vegetarian diet regimen, using a juice-maker to enable him to take in large quantities of fresh produce and the many phytochemicals contained therein. Now, that could be coincidence, and that is certainly not a large-scale clinical trial.  But it does suggest to me that this dietary approach, which goes back to Nobel-Prize-winning theories discovered by scientist Otto Warburg in the 1920s and has a nearly 80-year history of helping many people who have tried it, is to be taken seriously.  And in view of the very low risk of trying such a diet at least for the short term, I don’t think it is unwise or dangerous to give it a try.  And apparently neither does the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, because they have an active research program on this approach which is offered to many of their oncology patients. -John Sangster  Wellesley Hills, MA USA

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Mike – I didn’t find your post too harsh – realistic, yes. We don’t have a lot of time. I am looking for information tho’ that may help extend that time. We won’t be doing the Mexico thing – not enuff $$$, and time is short as well to be putting that kind of traveling effort out. I am however looking for things we can use as more "ammo" in the fight, like diet. So – John… and to go on a Gerson-style vegetarian diet regimen,

Where do I find out more about this diet, or others? Do major bookstores carry topics like this, or mostly I’d find them somewhere else, like health food stores? We are all newbies to this, and I am looking for info, to see if anything has actually worked for real people. For example, not one laetrile user has responded to this post. My bro-in-law ( a thoracic surgeon) told me that if something like B-17 actually worked against cancer, people would know about it – thats the kind of people I am looking for. I don’t intend to waste time on foofarah and hoakum. I *really* appreciate you all taking the time to answer. Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike – I didn’t find your post too harsh – realistic, yes. We don’t have a lot of time. I am looking for information tho’ that may help extend that time. We won’t be doing the Mexico thing – not enuff $$$, and time is short as well to be putting that kind of traveling effort out. I am however looking for things we can use as more "ammo" in the fight, like diet. So – John… and to go on a Gerson-style vegetarian diet regimen, Where do I find out more about this diet, or others? Do major bookstores carry topics like this, or mostly I’d find them somewhere else, like health food stores?

"A Cancer Therapy Results of 50 Cases" by Max Gerson MD is available from www.amazon.com and www.gerson.org The Gerson Intitute is not for profit, and will give advice and support on the therapy for free. We are all newbies to this, and I am looking for info, to see if anything has actually worked for real people. For example, not one laetrile user has responded to this post. My bro-in-law ( a thoracic surgeon) told me that if something like B-17 actually worked against cancer, people would know about it – thats the kind of people I am looking for. I don’t intend to waste time on foofarah and hoakum. I *really* appreciate you all taking the time to answer.

www.fact-ltd.org Has good general advice. They are not for profit, favour no particular alternative therapy, and were formed by recovered patients and care givers. Call them for free advice. good luck. Before you buy.

Before you buy.

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Mike – I didn’t find your post too harsh – realistic, yes. We don’t have a lot of time. I am looking for information tho’ that may help extend that time. We won’t be doing the Mexico thing – not enuff $$$, and time is short as well to be putting that kind of traveling effort out. I am however looking for things we can use as more "ammo" in the fight, like diet. So – John… and to go on a Gerson-style vegetarian diet regimen, Where do I find out more about this diet, or others? Do major bookstores carry topics like this, or mostly I’d find them somewhere else, like health food stores?

You have to be exceedingly cautious regarding books published in the popular press.  There’s no guarantee the information is current or even accurate. The only reviews such books generally go through are for spelling and grammar. Chances are if you see it in Chapters, it hasn’t gone through any rigorous medical or scientific reviews designed to ensure that the information, advice etc is valid.  These books are designed to make money.  One book that immediately comes to mind is "Sharks Don’t Get Cancer".  Sharks do get cancer, even in the cartilage.  But I doubt we’ll see a retraction of that book any time soon.  Another example would be Anne Frahm’s "A Cancer Battle Plan".  How many people know that she died of cancer in 1998?  Yet her husband has continued the franchise. Now Gerson therapy is unique in that there is a paper in the scientific literature about it, done by proponents.  But it was shown to be so shoddily done, they reportedly pulled it as a reference from their own organization’s website.  A close analysis of that paper suggests that the therapy does not provide an advantage.  (At the very least the authors should have been ashamed of attempting to compare results from 15 highly selected patients, to a 15,000-strong cancer registry.)  And, health food stores may not be the best venue for information either–think of the potential conflict of interest there.  (There are reasons why doctors aren’t allowed to sell pharmaceuticals from their offices.) We are all newbies to this, and I am looking for info, to see if anything has actually worked for real people. For example, not one laetrile user has responded to this post. My bro-in-law ( a thoracic surgeon) told me that if something like B-17 actually worked against cancer, people would know about it – thats the kind of people I am looking for. I don’t intend to waste time on foofarah and hoakum. I *really* appreciate you all taking the time to answer.

Actually if any of this stuff really worked, we wouldn’t need to rely on anecdote and testimonial for evidence–we’d have the well-controlled studies to prove it.  And your brother-in-law is indeed right–if it really worked, doctors would be using it.  Have you considered clinical trials?  In any event you have to be exceedingly careful, weigh the pros and cons fully, and if you do decide to undertake an altmed regimen, to be realistic about its chances of success. T.

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You may want to look at http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/ It is run by Ann Fonfa, who is a survivor. It is not commercial, she is not selling anything, and she will answer your emails. This is the best alt/comp cancer website I’ve seen so far. dave Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike – I didn’t find your post too harsh – realistic, yes. We don’t have a lot of time. I am looking for information tho’ that may help extend that time. We won’t be doing the Mexico thing – not enuff $$$, and time is short as well to be putting that kind of traveling effort out. I am You have to be exceedingly cautious regarding books published in the popular press.  There’s no guarantee the information is current or even accurate. The only reviews such books generally go through are for spelling and grammar. Chances are if you see it in Chapters, it hasn’t gone through any rigorous medical or scientific reviews designed to ensure that the information, advice etc is valid.  These books are designed to make money.  One book

Making money is what keeps the drug companies afloat too. So what is problem with making money off of sick people? Everyone does it. -bryan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike – I didn’t find your post too harsh – realistic, yes. We don’t have a lot of time. I am looking for information tho’ that may help extend that time. We won’t be doing the Mexico thing – not enuff $$$, and time is short as well to be putting that kind of traveling effort out. I am You have to be exceedingly cautious regarding books published in the popular press.  There’s no guarantee the information is current or even accurate. The only reviews such books generally go through are for spelling and grammar. Chances are if you see it in Chapters, it hasn’t gone through any rigorous medical or scientific reviews designed to ensure that the information, advice etc is valid.  These books are designed to make money.  One book Making money is what keeps the drug companies afloat too. So what is problem with making money off of sick people? Everyone does it.

I’d rather see profits come from promoting accurate, solid and valid information, than from testimonial tripe that has never even seen any sort of scientific study or worse, been disproven.  Unless you think it’s OK to profit off of patients’ desperation.  The Hulda Clark crap comes to mind. T.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike – I didn’t find your post too harsh – realistic, yes. We don’t have a lot of time. I am looking for information tho’ that may help extend that time. We won’t be doing the Mexico thing – not enuff $$$, and time is short as well to be putting that kind of traveling effort out. I am however looking for things we can use as more "ammo" in the fight, like diet. So – John… and to go on a Gerson-style vegetarian diet regimen, Where do I find out more about this diet, or others? Do major bookstores carry topics like this, or mostly I’d find them somewhere else, like health food stores? You have to be exceedingly cautious regarding books published in the popular press.  There’s no guarantee the information is current or even accurate. The only reviews such books generally go through are for spelling and grammar. Chances are if you see it in Chapters, it hasn’t gone through any rigorous medical or scientific reviews designed to ensure that the information, advice etc is valid.  These books are designed to make money.  One book that immediately comes to mind is "Sharks Don’t Get Cancer".  Sharks do get cancer, even in the cartilage.  But I doubt we’ll see a retraction of that book any time soon.  Another example would be Anne Frahm’s "A Cancer Battle Plan".  How many people know that she died of cancer in 1998?  Yet her husband has continued the franchise.

I believe she achieved a 10 year remission from "terminal" cancer before she died. If this is true, I think it’s worth mentioning. Gerson therapy is not "unique" in this respect. There is a paper outlining results of the Keley Therapy in the literature. You may argue about what that paper proves ( have you read the FULL paper, or just the abstract??? ). The full paper addresses some of the criticisms I have seen from those who have merely read the abstract. Now Gerson therapy is unique in that there is a paper in the scientific literature about it, done by proponents.  But it was shown to be so shoddily done, they reportedly pulled it as a reference from their own organization’s website.

I don’t know who reported that it has been pulled. Here’s the reference. AFAIK it was never "pulled". Please check facts and don’t report hearsay. http://www.gerson-research.org/docs/HildenbrandGLG-1995-1/index.html There are other papers in the literature about the Gerson therapy. "The story of Ian Gawler", Australian Medical Journal 1978,2,433. "British oncologists evaluate Gerson cancer treatment", The Lancet,336 (8716), 18 Sep 1990. also Ward PS. History of the Gerson therapy. Contract report prepared for the U.S. Office of Technology Assessment. U.S. Government Printing Office, 1988 http://www.gerson-research.org/docs/WardPS-1988-1/index.html Quoted from the above page.. The most serious problems stemmed from relations with the lower-level staff members, who were actually writing the report. There was simply no reservoir of trust between them and the subjects of their inquiry. The staff writers routinely downplayed or even suppressed information that was at all favorable towards alternative treatments. The most egregious example involved Patricia Spain Ward, Ph.D., campus historian of the University of Illinois, Chicago, who had been hired as a contractor by the OTA. Dr. Ward was perceived as a skeptic about alternative medicine because she had written a negative paper on Andrew Ivy, M.D., proponent of the unconventional drug Krebiozen, who had once been president of her medical school. But Dr. Ward took the assignment because she was concerned about the lack of adequate evaluation of such treatments. She thought that OTA "with its sterling reputation for courage and fairness, would again capture the gratitude of the nation by producing a truly disinterested, unbiased treatment in the troubled realm of unconventional cancer treatment." By 1987, she reflected, "hostility and distrust so thoroughly pervaded both sides of this chasm…that only an agency of OTAs standing could hope to bridge it" (Speech to OTA Advisory Board, March 9, 1990). In good faith, Dr. Ward prepared reports for the office on three controversial treatments–the Gerson diet, the Hoxsey herbal treatment, and the more conventional immune stimulant, BCG. She herself was surprised to find that there was considerable scientific support for the potential benefit of all three of these treatments. But the OTA staff apparently had a different sort of conclusion in mind, and refused to circulate these reports to its own Advisory Council members. In a letter to Ward, they claimed these were too positive in tone. Under protest from board members, the reports were finally released. Yet internal reports that were downright hostile to alternatives were circulated to panel members unimpeded. The attempted suppression of Ward’s reports was a defining moment. Not surprisingly, hostility towards the staff, and between various board members, broke out into the open at the advisory panel meeting of September 28, 1988. The staff had circulated a partial draft of the final report to the advisors but "had asked the panel not to circulate this draft to others." As it turned out, they later complained, "it was widely copied and circulated, and a large number of observers at the panel meeting had copies."  A close analysis of that paper suggests that the therapy does not provide an advantage.

I’m not a statastician or researcher. I haven’t see a formal "trashing" with the right of rebuttal accorded. You may be right, you may not. (At the very least the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – authors should have been ashamed of attempting to compare results from 15 highly selected patients, to a 15,000-strong cancer registry.) And, health food stores may not be the best venue for information either–think of the potential conflict of interest there.  (There are reasons why doctors aren’t allowed to sell pharmaceuticals from their offices.) We are all newbies to this, and I am looking for info, to see if anything has actually worked for real people. For example, not one laetrile user has responded to this post. My bro-in-law ( a thoracic surgeon) told me that if something like B-17 actually worked against cancer, people would know about it – thats the kind of people I am looking for. I don’t intend to waste time on foofarah and hoakum. I *really* appreciate you all taking the time to answer. Actually if any of this stuff really worked, we wouldn’t need to rely on anecdote and testimonial for evidence–we’d have the well-controlled studies to prove it.  And your brother-in-law is indeed right–if it really worked, doctors would be using it.  Have you considered clinical trials?  In any event you have to be exceedingly careful, weigh the pros and cons fully, and if you do decide to undertake an altmed regimen, to be realistic about its chances of success. T.

 For what it’s worth I don’t think laetrile works either. But I may be wrong. dave Before you buy.

Response:

Mike – I didn’t find your post too harsh – realistic, yes. We don’t have a lot of time. I am looking for information tho’ that may help extend that time. We won’t be doing the Mexico thing – not enuff $$$, and time is short as well to be putting that kind of traveling effort out. I am however looking for things we can use as more "ammo" in the fight, like diet. So – John… and to go on a Gerson-style vegetarian diet regimen, Where do I find out more about this diet, or others? Do major bookstores carry topics like this, or mostly I’d find them somewhere else, like health food stores?

There is a good overview of the various dietary approaches in the following book:     Ross Pelton, R.Ph., Ph.D., and Lee Overholser, Ph.D., "Alternatives in     Cancer Therapy", NY: Fireside/Simon&Schuster, 1994.  ISBN 0-671-79623-2. The book by Anne Frahm called "A Cancer Battle Plan" goes into more detail on "how to" instructions, reasons, lists of supplements that are helpful, and many other things.  (ISBN is 0-89109-690-6 and it should be widely available.)  I think it contains excellent advice despite the fact that after surviving her bout with cancer for about eight or ten years Ms. Frahm then had a recurrence and lost that second battle. The more specialized book "The Grape Cure" also has very detailed advice on dietary therapy which closely correlates with the general vegetarian diet except that the author focuses on the use of an "all-grape diet" in the early stages.  (Then she advises a transition to a more general vegetarian diet and still later, the introduction of other foods.) Here’s the full reference to this book:     Johanna Brandt: "The Grape Cure", Yonkers, NY: Ehret Literature Publish-     ing Co., Inc.  <no date listed <no ISBN listed.  This book may be     ordered from the publisher at (914) 479-0900. Cover price (1998): $3.95.     By mail: 425 Saw Mill River Road, Ardsley, NY. In a nutshell (grape skin?) the above has about the best detailed dietary instructions I’ve seen and IMO could be followed either verbatim if you want to use grape therapy or else skip the early instructions and pick it up where she starts introducing more general vegetarian foods if you wish to avoid grapes (e.g. as is recommended today by some researchers if you have an estrogen-responsive tumor).  (NOTE: I have a summary of Ms. Brandt’s instructions that I can post or e-mail on request – a Deja News search should find it in the archives because I think I’ve already posted it a couple of times.  While you’re at it, you should also search for "ellagic acid" as it seems to be perhaps as potent as resveratrol (in grapes) and thus red raspberries might be substituted for grapes in cases where grapes must be avoided.) Here are some other books and URLs that I’ve collected, though I haven’t had time to look at very many of them. -John S. DEFINITIVE GUIDE TO CANCER by W. John Diamond, M.d., W. Lee Cowden, M.d,  Burton Goldberg, Future Medicine Publishing, Inc, 1997.  ISBN 1887299017. PERMANENT REMISSIONS by Robert Haas, M.S., Pocket Books, 1997.  ISBN 0671007769 www.acam.org  is the site of the American College for Advancement in Medicine. They offer info on alternative therapies & practioners across the world. altmed.od.nih.gov  is the Office of Alternative Medicine.  (JHS note: This is now elevated to the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine – NCCAM.  The URL may be out of date.) www.bu.edu/cohis/about/alttx/alttherp.htm  is the site of Information on Alternative Therapies in Cancer Cancer & Nutrition books: Cancer Battle Plan Six Strategies for beating Cancer From a Recovered "Hopeless Case" Anne Frahm.  (Mentioned above -JHS) http://www.readersndex.com/imprint/000000p/000006b/0000000/title.html Beating Cancer With Nutrition—-Patrick Quillan, M.D. Reclaim Your Health —-David & Anne Frahm Selenium Update ——Richard Passwater, Ph.D. http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/3890/ Flax Oil As A True Aid Against Heart Infarction, Cancer and Other Diseases —-Dr Johanna Budwig. The Cancer Solution—-Robert Willner,M.D. (his top therapy is the Budwig diet) You Can Prevent Breast Cancer! —–Harvey Diamond. http://www1.mhv.net/%7Edonn/diamond.html http://members.aol.com/cmorri2513/hygiene.htm He has two sources of Green foods listed. A Cancer Therapy Results of 50 Cases and The Cure of Advanced Cancer by Diet Therapy—Max Gerson. Gerson Diet  http://www.gerson.com/history.html http://www.1999.com/gerson/ http://www.gerson.com/cnb104.html Gerson Institute http://www.gerson.org/index.html http://gerson.org/booklist.html#acancertherapy http://gerson.org/maxbio.html http://gerson.org/booklist.html#acancertherapy What I Would Do If I Had Cancer Again —Pierce N.D. The Kelly diet therapy.  http://www.oxytherapy.com/aj/not.html How I Conquered Cancer Naturally –Eydie Mae.  (Wigmore living foods program.)  (I’ve read this one and it does give a lot of details that may help anyone   attempting dietary therapy and related methods. -JHS) Cancer Free, 30 Who Triumphed Over Cancer Naturally—-Fawcett & Smith (Macrobiotics) Tissue Cleansing Through Bowel Management—-Bernard Jensen Cancer & Nutrition—Charles Simone,M.D. Colon Health—Walker Fats That Heal, Fats That Kill—-Udo Erasmus  (This one and Erasmus’s earlier "Fats and Oils" give a detailed explanation   of Budwig’s "recipe" for the flax oil plus protein formula. -JHS) Juicing For Life—Calbom & Keane Enzyme Nutrition—Dr Howell Enzymes & Enzyme Therapy—Cichoke, D.C.  (Probably a better name would be "phytochemical therapy" as many of these   people who speak of enzymes don’t really understand what enzymes do. -JHS) How to Live Longer—-Pauling http://www.garynull.com/Documents/vitaminc.htm http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/ Diet for a New America—John Robbins Dr Moerman

Question:

I am sick whether I drink it or not, so I drink it anyways and get my cheap thrills while I can. Mark CD c/o 88

Response:

i’ve been drinking coffee for years and been diagnosed just a couple of months but been sick for quite some time now.i have heard that caffeine isn’t good for people like myself who has crones disease.so i gave up chocolate instead.i figure chocolate was the lesser of two evils.and while neither one is particularly good for you,coffee won’t rest on the stomache like chocolate will.good luck to you.-elaine

Response:

I drink a pot of coffee each day, and seem to have no problem with it.  I’ve had CD for over 10 years.   I actually had more problems when I tried to stop drinking coffee.  Started the coffee again after a week and things seem to have improved. Does this make any sense to anyone? Dena

Dear Dena:   Believe me, as a huge coffee drinker all of my life, this makes a great deal of sense to me!  I have more troubles trying to cut down on coffee than if I just go ahead and drink it like I normally do!  My GI doc always tell me I have to cut back, but it is not worth all the pain I go through!  Just my 2 cents worth. Love,   Margie CD Class of 67 UC Class of 96

Response:

Am planing to start drinking soffee, especially to be able to stay awake when I really need to. My concern is whether coffee could cause my CD to flare up

I have always drank a great deal of coffee.  It is usually my first beverage on getting up and my last beverage before going to bed.  It never keeps me up. But I will say that my doctors and many others have stated that caffine in any form, but especially coffee and colas, can cause CD to flare.  Especially if you are  not a regular coffee drinker.  Hope this helps you. Always,  Margie CD Class of 67 UC Class of 96

Response:

I drink a pot of coffee each day, and seem to have no problem with it.  I’ve had CD for over 10 years.   I actually had more problems when I tried to stop drinking coffee.  My colon freaked out and I had a lot of pain. Started the coffee again after a week and things seem to have improved. Does this make any sense to anyone? Dena – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never was much of a coffee drinker and prefer to stick to tea. I am 26 year old with Moderate CD for the last 10 years. Am planing to start drinking soffee, especially to be able to stay awake when I really need to. My concern is whether coffee could cause my CD to flare up or not or whether it might cause problems. Help from any CD patient that drinks coffee is appreciated. Regards, F. Before you buy.

Response:

Personally, I can’t touch caffeine in any form – including chocolate – else I end up spending hours in the bathroom (and this is with ileostomy as well).  Some can handle it, others can’t.  It’s up to you to decide. If you can handle tea though, I ‘d suggest you can probably handle at least a certain amount of coffee. Sam CD Class of ‘97

: I never was much of a coffee drinker and prefer to stick to tea. : I am 26 year old with Moderate CD for the last 10 years. : Am planing to start drinking soffee, especially to be able to stay awake : when I really need to. My concern is whether coffee could cause my CD to : flare up or not or whether it might cause problems. : Help from any CD patient that drinks coffee is appreciated. : Regards, : F. : Before you buy.

Response:

I can’t handle caffeine, altho’ I have never been able to work out chocolate – except that the recent Easter holiday sent me to hospital. The point I was going to make was that someone mentioned to me that chocolate does not contain caffeine, only a similar chemical. Not that this helps, I am sure if you have an intolerance to one, you’ve probably got the other. The question, however, is: does chocolate contain caffeine? Paolo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I can’t touch caffeine in any form – including chocolate – else I end up spending hours in the bathroom (and this is with ileostomy as well).  Some can handle it, others can’t.  It’s up to you to decide. If you can handle tea though, I ‘d suggest you can probably handle at least a certain amount of coffee. Sam CD Class of ‘97 : I never was much of a coffee drinker and prefer to stick to tea. : I am 26 year old with Moderate CD for the last 10 years. : Am planing to start drinking soffee, especially to be able to stay awake : when I really need to. My concern is whether coffee could cause my CD to : flare up or not or whether it might cause problems. : Help from any CD patient that drinks coffee is appreciated. : Regards, : F. : Before you buy.

Response:

As you say it is different for everyone. I haven’t been able to drink any caffeine products (tea, coffee, cola, etc.) for years and was only diagnosed CD three weeks ago. I found that caffeine gave me stomach cramps and possibly diarrhoea. However I do love coffee and have had the decaf variety – altho’ this won’t exactly wake you up in the morning. Regards, Paolo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oooh… tricky one this! I’ve been told by the GI doctors to try to refrain from caffeine as it does stimulate the bowel.  However, there are many with Crohn’s who drink it, and many who don’t.  I think it’s just a case of how each individual deals with it.  In saying this though, you’ve been drinking tea for a while and it has around the same amount of caffeine in it as coffee. Personally, I luuuurve coffee, so I do drink it, and find that it does stimulate my bowel, but in a good way.  Every morning when I waken up, I have the same old pain and diarrhoea, but I find that without coffee, this can last up to 8 hours before settling; whereas with coffee, I can get the pain and diarrhoea down to 4 hours. Cheers! Alan "I’m a smileyhead" Jones URL: www.facelink.com/ajjones

Response:

It is not the coffee that effects CD as much as the caffine. For me, whoosh, right thru the system. Decaff is ok for me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never was much of a coffee drinker and prefer to stick to tea. I am 26 year old with Moderate CD for the last 10 years. Am planing to start drinking soffee, especially to be able to stay awake when I really need to. My concern is whether coffee could cause my CD to flare up or not or whether it might cause problems. Help from any CD patient that drinks coffee is appreciated. Regards, F. Before you buy.

Response:

Oooh… tricky one this! I’ve been told by the GI doctors to try to refrain from caffeine as it does stimulate the bowel.  However, there are many with Crohn’s who drink it, and many who don’t.  I think it’s just a case of how each individual deals with it.  In saying this though, you’ve been drinking tea for a while and it has around the same amount of caffeine in it as coffee. Personally, I luuuurve coffee, so I do drink it, and find that it does stimulate my bowel, but in a good way.  Every morning when I waken up, I have the same old pain and diarrhoea, but I find that without coffee, this can last up to 8 hours before settling; whereas with coffee, I can get the pain and diarrhoea down to 4 hours. Cheers! Alan "I’m a smileyhead" Jones URL: www.facelink.com/ajjones

Response:

I drink at least one cup of tea per day…there was one time 2 years ago I gave up tea and had a mild flareup. Tea has antioxidents that is suppose to help you. I’ve since then been having at least 1 cup of tea per day. But I had a bad flareup 1.5 years ago so tea didn’t help then  lol BP

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear F., I drink 1 small pot of fresh mocha coffee a day, it "gets me going!" mostly to the bathroom (!) but im very careful with my diet apart from that sticking to a specific regime, so i figure my stomach can stand one antagonist. If i have decaff, i tend to feel worse however, – must be some additive or wheat in it. Amanda. I never was much of a coffee drinker and prefer to stick to tea. I am 26 year old with Moderate CD for the last 10 years. Am planing to start drinking soffee, especially to be able to stay awake when I really need to. My concern is whether coffee could cause my CD to flare up or not or whether it might cause problems. Help from any CD patient that drinks coffee is appreciated. Regards, F. Before you buy.

Response:

Dear F., I drink 1 small pot of fresh mocha coffee a day, it "gets me going!" mostly to the bathroom (!) but im very careful with my diet apart from that sticking to a specific regime, so i figure my stomach can stand one antagonist. If i have decaff, i tend to feel worse however, – must be some additive or wheat in it. Amanda. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never was much of a coffee drinker and prefer to stick to tea. I am 26 year old with Moderate CD for the last 10 years. Am planing to start drinking soffee, especially to be able to stay awake when I really need to. My concern is whether coffee could cause my CD to flare up or not or whether it might cause problems. Help from any CD patient that drinks coffee is appreciated. Regards, F. Before you buy.

Response:

Drinking coffee is a tricky one, some ibd sufferers can drink it, I myself drink the fresh stuff not instant and am ok on it, the only thing to do is try it and see how you go… I have diet info on my website, with things recommended to drink / eat and what to avoid for most people Good Luck — Steve-Hudson IBDUk Webmaster http://members.tripod.com/sudson8472 Phoenix online shopping http://members.tripod.com/phoenixols Du bist nicht allein

Response:

I never was much of a coffee drinker and prefer to stick to tea. I am 26 year old with Moderate CD for the last 10 years. Am planing to start drinking soffee, especially to be able to stay awake when I really need to. My concern is whether coffee could cause my CD to flare up or not or whether it might cause problems. Help from any CD patient that drinks coffee is appreciated. Regards, F. Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Is this Serum C-peptide test done  frequently in a clinical setting?  i.e. does the average doctor request this test?  I think I have severe hyperinsulism and would like to have it tested.  Thanks so much for the test name. Lana – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nelson said: Is there a test for "elevated insulin"?  I have NEVER had a doctor test my insulin.  Can we actually be tested for hyperinsulinism?  I have only had blood glucose tested by my doctor. Serum C-peptide? — diabetes Type 2 10mg glyburide HbA1c: 12.1/?/6.0

Response:

He weighs maybe 120 lbs soaking wet and looks very gaunt and unhealthy to me. One of the fellows always refers to him as "stick man". — Debbie Cusick "When I get a little money I buy books: and if any is left over I buy food and clothes. "  - Erasmus Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is a guy whose diet is probably about 90% carbs. Just about the only things he eats are homemade white bread, homemade fat-free plain yogurt, and aged, squishy fruit that’s he cuts the bad spots out of before adding to his yogurt. He eats virtually no fat or protein. what shape is this guy in?

Response:

Is there a test for "elevated insulin"?  I have NEVER had a doctor test my insulin.  Can we actually be tested for hyperinsulinism?  I have only had blood glucose tested by my doctor. Thanks, Lana – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This goes along with the AHA’s admission last year (1998) that there is a higher statistical correlation between elevated insulin and heart attack than there is between elevated cholesterol and heart attack. — Richard in Texas LC since 8/2/99 202/168/140 Advice from children: "Never tell your mom her diet’s not working."  - Michael, age 14 Anyone see it?  They were saying 1 out of every 3 people have syndrome X,  a serious symptom of carb addiction.  And they are admitting that it can lead to heart disease. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

another hidden fact! — read and post, everyday! rosie …….if you think education is expensive, try ignorance! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This goes along with the AHA’s admission last year (1998) that there is a higher statistical correlation between elevated insulin and heart attack than there is between elevated cholesterol and heart attack. — Richard in Texas LC since 8/2/99 202/168/140 Advice from children: "Never tell your mom her diet’s not working."  - Michael, age 14 Anyone see it?  They were saying 1 out of every 3 people have syndrome X,  a serious symptom of carb addiction.  And they are admitting that it can lead to heart disease. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

this is a guy whose diet is probably about 90% carbs. Just about the only things he eats are homemade white bread, homemade fat-free plain yogurt, and aged, squishy fruit that’s he cuts the bad spots out of before adding to his yogurt. He eats virtually no fat or protein.

what shape is this guy in? rosie

Response:

It was generally positive for LC’ers… however, At the very end, the host had to throw in, If you eat too much of anything you will gain weight and a calorie is STILL a calorie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone see it?  They were saying 1 out of every 3 people have syndrome X,  a serious symptom of carb addiction.  And they are admitting that it can lead to heart disease. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

Just a minor correction, but I think it was the AHA that admitted their suggested diet was not appropriate for Syndrome X patients.  They kind of copped-out, in my opinion, by saying that their diet was not meant for use by any patients with an illness.  The reverse of this is that their diet is only meant for healthy people, right?  So they are saying, in essence, that the low-fat, pyramid-based diet is only a maintenance diet for people that don’t have any outstanding problems.  Either that or they are not admitting that being overweight or having high cholesterol/triglycerides is an illness.  But now they have to admit that at least a large subset of the population (1 in 3!) do in fact have an illness. I suppose expecting them to come out and say "We we’re wrong" is a little naive on my part.  Of course they’re going to find a way to say something like "Of course we never meant our diet for THOSE people." (sigh) -Kevin 307/262/225  (not far from the elusive 50lb mark!)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone see it?  They were saying 1 out of every 3 people have syndrome X,  a serious symptom of carb addiction.  And they are admitting that it can lead to heart disease. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

IMHO there are generalized rules that are appropriate for "normal" eaters….any food is good in moderation for them… a diabetic  usually can not eat sugar in moderation, maybe a person with chronic kidney problems can’t eat protein in moderation… people with crones disease have their limitations also… I am carbohydrate addicted, and I can not eat most carbs in moderation ….in no way am I a "normal" eater… Renee

Response:

Even one of the guys at my lunch table at work today was talking about it, and this is a guy whose diet is probably about 90% carbs. Just about the only things he eats are homemade white bread, homemade fat-free plain yogurt, and aged, squishy fruit that’s he cuts the bad spots out of before adding to his yogurt. He eats virtually no fat or protein. — Debbie Cusick "When I get a little money I buy books: and if any is left over I buy food and clothes. "  - Erasmus Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yup, Fran.  Great show.

Response:

Does this make all of us eligible for disability? I want a good parking space! — Richard in Texas LC since 8/2/99 202/168/140 Advice from children: "Never tell your mom her diet’s not working."  - Michael, age 14

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a minor correction, but I think it was the AHA that admitted their suggested diet was not appropriate for Syndrome X patients.  They kind of copped-out, in my opinion, by saying that their diet was not meant for use by any patients with an illness.  The reverse of this is that their diet is only meant for healthy people, right?  So they are saying, in essence, that the low-fat, pyramid-based diet is only a maintenance diet for people that don’t have any outstanding problems.  Either that or they are not admitting that being overweight or having high cholesterol/triglycerides is an illness.  But now they have to admit that at least a large subset of the population (1 in 3!) do in fact have an illness. I suppose expecting them to come out and say "We we’re wrong" is a little naive on my part.  Of course they’re going to find a way to say something like "Of course we never meant our diet for THOSE people." (sigh) -Kevin 307/262/225  (not far from the elusive 50lb mark!) Anyone see it?  They were saying 1 out of every 3 people have syndrome X,  a serious symptom of carb addiction.  And they are admitting that it can lead to heart disease. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

I have a feeling the new revised one is going to be a Barry Sears 40-30-30 one.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. WOW!!!!! Indigo

Response:

Yep , isocaloric. Matt

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a feeling the new revised one is going to be a Barry Sears 40-30-30 one. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. WOW!!!!! Indigo

Response:

They did NOT say there would be a new pyramid, and the AMA didn’t say anything about the guidlines!  The American HEART Association said that there would be new AHA dietary guidlines in the spring. julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a feeling the new revised one is going to be a Barry Sears 40-30-30 one. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. WOW!!!!! Indigo

Response:

This goes along with the AHA’s admission last year (1998) that there is a higher statistical correlation between elevated insulin and heart attack than there is between elevated cholesterol and heart attack. — Richard in Texas LC since 8/2/99 202/168/140 Advice from children: "Never tell your mom her diet’s not working."  - Michael, age 14

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone see it?  They were saying 1 out of every 3 people have syndrome X,  a serious symptom of carb addiction.  And they are admitting that it can lead to heart disease. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

Anyone see it?  They were saying 1 out of every 3 people have syndrome X,  a serious symptom of carb addiction.  And they are admitting that it can lead to heart disease. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

I’ll be damned. Lets see if Dean Edell eats crow. Matt

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone see it?  They were saying 1 out of every 3 people have syndrome X,  a serious symptom of carb addiction.  And they are admitting that it can lead to heart disease. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000. Progress?  Yes.

WOW!!!!! Indigo

Response:

Anyone see it?

Yup, Fran.  Great show. They were saying 1 out of every 3 people have syndrome X, a serious symptom of carb addiction.  And they are admitting that it can lead to heart disease.

They really got into the entire hyperinsulemia condition ("Syndrome X") — stressed that you make up carb calories with proteins & fats — that they’re not as bad as too many carbs.  Even the nutritional naysayers (for editorial "balance") were fairly benign this time.  None of the usual drivel about kidney damage and bad breath. And guess what the AMA admitted that people with syndrome X can be at at risk for heart attack from carbs and they are going to put out a new and revised food pyramid , June 2000.

Actually, it was the American Heart Association.  The piece also concentrated solely on Sears’ "Zone" Diet.  No mention of the other keto diets out there, but I was amazed how they took the time to show how much ’sugar’ is in potatoes, pasta, bananas, oatmeal, bagels, etc., and then how ‘balanced’ (meat & veggies) an LC diet is.  Quite impressed. The URL for the transcript is at: http://abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020Index.html Progress?  Yes.

‘From little steps come great leaps’.  Definitely progress. Best, Dave Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Steve, I put a smile in my message.  :-) DAWN

Response:

What I’d really like to know is how on earth can you misspell crohn’s when it is in the name of the NG? Hugs Pooh

Response:

Pooh, It happens constantly!  Along with many other grievous errors of spelling (like bowel and tract… those are my favorites!) and grammar. I just shake my head and move on. Chris (feeling kinda Cronish because I just got home from work… and my Crohn’s was acting up fiercely the entire time I was there)

Response:

I don’t think NSAIDS can cause Crohn’s but I do think they can cause flares and other damage.  Right before I was diagnosed with Crohn’s, I was having bad heel pains, and a univeristy doc had me take Naprosyn.  After some time of taking this NSAID, I had my first full crisis of Crohn’s.  Well, it was horrible, as we all know it can be. At first I thought it may have been due to the Naprosyn, but later thinking, I realized the heel pain was probably my first symptom of Crohn’s.  The heel pain spread to be foot and ankle and leg bone pain. So while the NSAID may have contributed to some irritation and bleeding, I do not think it caused the Crohn’s. Linda C – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Please help, can Nsaids bring on Crones Disease? Have a  nice day!

Response:

There’s no evidence that NSAIDs cause Crohn’s, but they can cause Crohn’s-like symptoms whether you have Crohn’s or not. It has been known for close to a century that NSAIDs can cause gastritis and ulcers. At one time it was thought that this was because they are all acidic and they irritate the linking of the stomach as they disolve. You can even get enteric-coated aspirin that is supposed to prevent this. But studies 25-30 years ago found that even injected NSAIDs cause inflamation of the stomach, so this was not the explanation. Current theory is that NSAIDs suppress mucus secretion in the digestive system, leaving it vulnerable to damage from acid and enzymes. A recent suspicion is that NSAIDs can cause inflamation anywhere in the digestive tract, and can thus mimic Crohn’s and UC. Please help, can Nsaids bring on Crones Disease? Have a  nice day!

– Larry Finch ::(whew!)

Response:

Chris …. LOL …. well that would be me on the grammar thing.  ;0) Hugs Pooh That’s ok …. tonight there was this lady that claimed she had Chrones for like 30 years .. (and that is how she spelled it). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pooh, It happens constantly!  Along with many other grievous errors of spelling (like bowel and tract… those are my favorites!) and grammar. I just shake my head and move on. Chris (feeling kinda Cronish because I just got home from work… and my Crohn’s was acting up fiercely the entire time I was there)

Response:

I don’t know if they cause Crohn’s, but prior to my diagnosis I was taking three Motrins a day for my migrain headaches. Paty

Response:

I’ve taken NSAIDS about a half-dozen times over the past 6 months, for carpal tunnel problems and a shoulder injury. My experience (your mileage may vary) is that my Crohn’s flares a few days after a small dose of NSAIDS. I try to avoid them; it works out better for me, since I personally noticed a connection. However, I’ve never read anything linking the two, and I think it’s like lactose — in that, it depends on you, and how your body (and your disease progression) reacts. Some may have problems, while others might not. I’m not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV. HTH, ^..^<

– Cat

Response:

NSAIDs can cause inflamation of the entire digestive system in ANYONE. If you have a flare after taking them the flare could be NSAID-induced inflamation. The numbers are pretty dramatic: 17% of people who take Naprosyn develop severe gastrointestinal symptoms. Naprosyn is the worst, but even Aspirin reaches 5%. Most of the others are inbetween. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve taken NSAIDS about a half-dozen times over the past 6 months, for carpal tunnel problems and a shoulder injury. My experience (your mileage may vary) is that my Crohn’s flares a few days after a small dose of NSAIDS. I try to avoid them; it works out better for me, since I personally noticed a connection. However, I’ve never read anything linking the two, and I think it’s like lactose — in that, it depends on you, and how your body (and your disease progression) reacts. Some may have problems, while others might not. I’m not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV. HTH, ^..^< — Cat

– Larry Finch ::(whew!)

Response:

What kind of diseases do witches get?    Crones Disease.    :-) DAWN

|Please help, can Nsaids bring on Crones Disease? |Have a  nice day!

Response:

Please help, can Nsaids bring on Crones Disease? Have a  nice day!

Response:

Please help, can Nsaids bring on Crones Disease? Have a  nice day!

The smartass answer would be, "I don’t know about Crones Disease, but more and more doctors are becoming concerned that it can cause flare-ups of Crohn’s Disease and Ulcerative Colitis." But since I’m not a smartass (yeah, right!), I’ll just say that we think NSAID’s can cause flare-ups but they do not cause IBD. I really should not pick on anyone else’s spelling, he he he! love, steve preferred e-mail address: without the "SPAM," of course! HOME: http://www.digdat.com/~psyche0/index.html ASCC: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/3298/

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Question:

Hi.. You are in my thoughts and prayers…I can tell you are a very sad and lonely finds you smiling! Love, Lisa

Response:

You’re just lucky your CD is not so bad that no-one knows you have it. You should try to understand that some people have quite severe IBD and it will affect their everyday life and there is nothing they can do about it. Of course they must stay positive but wishful thinking will only get you so far. Please try and think a bit more about those worse off than yourself? Remember that some people die because of their IBD so there isn’t medicine for all the symptoms, only some of them. I agree.  There are medicines for all our symptoms.  What do these disabled Crohn’s people do all day, watch Jerry Springer?  You either have active Crohn’s that requires treatment and may involve temporary disability or you are in remission.  In that case get a job.  I am not in remission now and I don’t always feel so good, but I haven’t missed one moment of my job.  No one there even knows I have Crohn’s.  It infuriates me to think this disease will run my life so I don’t let it. Seeking permanent disability for this is creating a stigma for those of us that aren’t addicted to narcotics and enjoy working for a living. You have let Crohn’s beat you.

Response:

Well, lucky, lucky you.  I have two words for you and those who think like you…BITE ME!

Response:

Finally someone with their head on straight. Jay I agree.  There are medicines for all our symptoms.

      Have you ever thought that even though there are meds, that some  What do these disabled Crohn’s people do all day, watch Jerry Springer?

      Ask my family what I do all day and night- there is never a break from  You either have active Crohn’s that requires treatment and may involve temporary disability or you are in remission.

      Gee, I’ve had active cd for OVER  16 YEARS . So in that case permament In that case get a job.     Gee, I was a nurse in ICU—lets say you are on a ventilator, your blood pressure is almost down to 0, and your heart is ready to stop. If I am not disabled, then I would be prepared to care for you for every hour, every minute, and every FUCKING SECOND of your miserable almost non-existant life for the 10 hours that I am on duty! But wait, I have to leave your bedside while you die, so that I can sit in the toilet for 10 minutes, and make that at least 5-10 times during my 10 hour shift. Gee, because of the arthritis, I am unable to push the heavy crash cart to your side, or give you the life saving medicines that you require pronto…….or have fingers nimble enough to start your IV that you pulled out in your confused hypoxic during CPR.  And while I’m at it, say you possibly recover from this little episode (I doubt it), You will have to lay in your own shit for a few hours because I can’t move you because I’m so weak and tired to move your 300 I am not in remission now and I don’t always feel so good, but I haven’t missed one moment of my job.

     Gee, I didn’t miss work either, but moving your fat ass just about killed me, and I am not able to be an effective care giver-so what am I supposed to do, call in sick every day and have others try to cover for  No one there even knows I have Crohn’s.  It infuriates me to think this disease will run my life so I don’t let it.

      Gee, working 10 hours a day, how do you NOT go to the BR at least once? While you are in ICU, I am expected to be at your bedside, making sure will very politely and VERY severely pull out your foley catheter that has a nice big baloon at the end holding it in your very short, flabby penis, only Seeking permanent disability for this is creating a stigma for those of us that aren’t addicted to narcotics and enjoy working for a living.

     Gee, I didn’t seek permanent disability, it sought me out. I wish like HELL that I could work–do you know how hard it is to not do something that you love? How would YOU like me to take care of you in this real life scenario that I just wrote about? You have let Crohn’s beat you.

prick Now, I feel sooooo much better. My apologies to all that I have offended- I don’t usually act or speak like this, but these assholes REALLY pissed me off! I makes me so mad- I worked hard for a living, and would do anything to be back at work, as I’m sure all of you who are going through this will

Response:

Gee, I was a nurse in ICU—lets say you are on a ventilator, your blood pressure is almost down to 0, and your heart is ready to stop. If I am not

<snip the rest of the crap Are you related to that other garbage mouth woman?  Geeesh…  If you have to go on a tirade  like that, why not do it in Email to the person who offended you so terribly and spare the rest of us? Jan…  

Response:

You obviously don’t know any people with Crohn who are not so ‘fortunate’ as you…. who are more in hospital then at home. who take medicines agains their symptoms (you’ve got that right! only agains symptoms!), but what do you know?? They don’t work!! What do you propose for those people? — Martin The Netherlands Http://www.dahlhaus.demon.nl Jason and Rita Stewart heeft geschreven in bericht I agree.  There are medicines for all our symptoms.  What do these disabled Crohn’s people do all day, watch Jerry Springer?  You either have active Crohn’s that requires treatment and may involve temporary disability or you are in remission.  In that case get a job.  I am not in remission now and I don’t always feel so good, but I haven’t missed one moment of my job.  No one there even knows I have Crohn’s.  It infuriates me to think this disease will run my life so I don’t let it. Seeking permanent disability for this is creating a stigma for those of us that aren’t addicted to narcotics and enjoy working for a living. You have let Crohn’s beat you.

Response:

When I read this piece of trash I decided it was time to let you know that you are ignorant about the subject you can’t even spell, much less how could you even know what living with UC/Crohn’s could possibly be like. I have had UC for 15 years and Crohn’s for one year.  Try raising a family, working and living with two horrible diseases and see how well you function.  I have had shingles from being allergic to the colonoscopy prep, 6 perianal abscesses with drainage tubes (try sitting at work}, bleeding constantly, busted teeth from only being able to take prendisone and the list goes on.  And you think all an individual needs is a bathroom around the corner!  You would be lucky to make it to that restroom in time.  I will make sure that I take my share of disability after working for 21+ years and am rightfully entitled to receive.  I worked in Human Resources for 8 years and all I can tell you is that I am by far a much better human being than you ever will be.    

Response:

Finally someone with their head on straight. Jay I agree.  There are medicines for all our symptoms.  What do these disabled Crohn’s people do all day, watch Jerry Springer?  You either have active Crohn’s that requires treatment and may involve temporary disability or you are in remission.  In that case get a job.  I am not in remission now and I don’t always feel so good, but I haven’t missed one moment of my job.  No one there even knows I have Crohn’s.  It infuriates me to think this disease will run my life so I don’t let it. Seeking permanent disability for this is creating a stigma for those of us that aren’t addicted to narcotics and enjoy working for a living. You have let Crohn’s beat you.

Response:

I’m very happy for you that you have a very mild case of CD….and hope it stays in remission for you….there are those of us that are not so fortunate, that have had over 20 surgeries, and gone from med. to med. with no success. We consider remission 3 or 4 days that we are able to leave our house but we can’t eat anything the day before, only when we return from our outing. This post could go on forever with many horrible details but there is no point in going any further than this. If  you can’t understand what I’m trying to say at this point, these words are falling on deaf ears….. Cheryl……

Response:

Crohns…learn to spell it! I know you made an error writing this message..I know you meant to say…there should be no reason for people with UC and Crohns not to be able to get disability. I know no one could be so ignorant as this.

Response:

I agree.  There are medicines for all our symptoms.  What do these disabled Crohn’s people do all day, watch Jerry Springer?  You either have active Crohn’s that requires treatment and may involve temporary disability or you are in remission.  In that case get a job.  I am not in remission now and I don’t always feel so good, but I haven’t missed one moment of my job.  No one there even knows I have Crohn’s.  It infuriates me to think this disease will run my life so I don’t let it. Seeking permanent disability for this is creating a stigma for those of us that aren’t addicted to narcotics and enjoy working for a living. You have let Crohn’s beat you.

Response:

I would like to know who you think you are.  If this is a joke it’s a cruel one!! I should be on disability, but this world is full of too many people like you! I have to work wearing a diaper and hoping that if I have an accident it doesn’t run down my leg and soil my close before I can get to the bathroom. You see if I get a cramp and realize I have to go, guess what, it’s too late. I’ve suffered for 20 years with this disease and it sucks bigtime.   You are an egominded, annual retentive asshole.  And you’ll get your on judgement day

Response:

he cannot spell crohns…so how serious could it be…goodness..its even in our newsgroup name. annie

Response:

steve good luck with the hearing…bet you win.. love you annie

Response:

I think it’s probably better to can work. In my case, to studie help me, I have a reason to continue. But during the more difficult time and when I was to the hospital, I realy appreciate that my teatchers understand and give me extentions for my works and my exams. I hope that I will have no difficulty when I will beging to work. I studie to be a teatcher of history in hig school. I apprehend the stress of my futur job. In Qu

Question:

Ok, I’ll explain it the best that I can. If there are any further questions, I
will leave Pat’s email at the end, then you can ask her, Ok?
From what I have learned this method of testing is based on the
body’s electrical frequencies. The average range for a person to
be functioning is about 45-55 megahetz(? I think this is the proper
measurement?). What Pat’s machine does is a non invasive test,
based on the acupressure points, measuring the frequency of all
major systems through these points (Hands, feet).
So say that your body is normally a 52. Then she tests your heart point,
that reads 57. This reading is saying that the heart is working much too
hard. Circulation needs to be improved. She does this stress test to all the major organs and systems.
When she tests for parasites, she is looking for abnomal readings.
Each parasite has a "call frequency", as do certain foods, drugs,
environmental factors. These things have been measured and programmed
into the computor previously. Now, from what I gather, she can locate
in which section they are in the body as well. Therefore she suggests
steps to counter negative influences. Change in diet, cleanses etc.
She compares normal readings to whatever is in question, based on its
frequency.
Dental Material compatability is a test that she runs to see if certain dental
materials upset the persons system or are neutral. We all know emalgum?
is not great when it is in the mouth. It can cause severe damage to the body
as it’s components are released over time. So when people choose to get
it extracted and replaced, Pat can tell them which is the most beneficial.
The teeth have nerve endings, like acupressure points, that correspond with different parts of the body. say my back left wisdom tooth is impacted,
it causes stress on my heart.
The basis of Dr, Hulda Clark, I’m positive she is an MD, is that all disease
are caused by parasites living in the body. The purpose of testing is to find
which of them it is for each illness, and force them out. Ex:Crones disease is
caused by the sheep liver fluke that lives in the intestines, when aggrevated
by foods or other known factors, it clamps down to the wall, causing bleeding,
and pain. parasites can be brought into a body by infected food, environment,
etc.
What parasites have to do with Ashley, is that there is one or more causing her
disease, symptoms etc. I’d like to find which they are and flush them out so her
body can repair itself as best as it can. Then take her off all the foods and other
negative factors that cause her system to slow down, get ill.
The purpose of finding out "all the little things" is so the body can focus its energy
on the large task at hand, which in Ashleys case is to repair the nervous system.
So if dairy and wheat disagree with the rest of her body’s workings, we’ll take her
off them. The less the body has to fight, the easier it is to get well!
Pat’s background is in Science and Mathematics. She has studied the Omega
Acu-Base for about 5 years. The first few with a naturopath who taught her about
electro dermal testing. The company that made her type of machine (there are a few),
is Omega Acu-Base. They do seminars and courses in which you can get certification.
Pat is at level 8 I think. She also attends conferences on natural & holistic heath
throughout the year. She is an aromatherapist as well.
Oops, my ride is here. Sorry. I will post agian tomorrow afternoon.
Bye!
Best Wishes,
marcia.
   -**** Posted from Supernews, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****- http://www.supernews.com/ – Host to the World’s Discussions & Usenet

Response:

Thank you for your interesting and detailed comments. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, I’ll explain it the best that I can. If there are any further questions, I will leave Pat’s email at the end, then you can ask her, Ok? From what I have learned this method of testing is based on the body’s electrical frequencies. The average range for a person to be functioning is about 45-55 megahetz(? I think this is the proper measurement?). What Pat’s machine does is a non invasive test, based on the acupressure points, measuring the frequency of all major systems through these points (Hands, feet). So say that your body is normally a 52. Then she tests your heart point, that reads 57. This reading is saying that the heart is working much too hard. Circulation needs to be improved. She does this stress test to all the major organs and systems. When she tests for parasites, she is looking for abnomal readings. Each parasite has a "call frequency", as do certain foods, drugs, environmental factors. These things have been measured and programmed into the computor previously. Now, from what I gather, she can locate in which section they are in the body as well. Therefore she suggests steps to counter negative influences. Change in diet, cleanses etc. She compares normal readings to whatever is in question, based on its frequency. Dental Material compatability is a test that she runs to see if certain dental materials upset the persons system or are neutral. We all know emalgum? is not great when it is in the mouth. It can cause severe damage to the body as it’s components are released over time. So when people choose to get it extracted and replaced, Pat can tell them which is the most beneficial. The teeth have nerve endings, like acupressure points, that correspond with different parts of the body. say my back left wisdom tooth is impacted, it causes stress on my heart. The basis of Dr, Hulda Clark, I’m positive she is an MD, is that all disease are caused by parasites living in the body. The purpose of testing is to find which of them it is for each illness, and force them out. Ex:Crones disease is caused by the sheep liver fluke that lives in the intestines, when aggrevated by foods or other known factors, it clamps down to the wall, causing bleeding, and pain. parasites can be brought into a body by infected food, environment, etc. What parasites have to do with Ashley, is that there is one or more causing her disease, symptoms etc. I’d like to find which they are and flush them out so her body can repair itself as best as it can. Then take her off all the foods and other negative factors that cause her system to slow down, get ill. The purpose of finding out "all the little things" is so the body can focus its energy on the large task at hand, which in Ashleys case is to repair the nervous system. So if dairy and wheat disagree with the rest of her body’s workings, we’ll take her off them. The less the body has to fight, the easier it is to get well! Pat’s background is in Science and Mathematics. She has studied the Omega Acu-Base for about 5 years. The first few with a naturopath who taught her about electro dermal testing. The company that made her type of machine (there are a few), is Omega Acu-Base. They do seminars and courses in which you can get certification. Pat is at level 8 I think. She also attends conferences on natural & holistic heath throughout the year. She is an aromatherapist as well. Oops, my ride is here. Sorry. I will post agian tomorrow afternoon. Bye! Best Wishes, marcia.    -**** Posted from Supernews, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****- http://www.supernews.com/ – Host to the World’s Discussions & Usenet

Response:

Question:

I was just wondering how many folks out here, have A.S.  How are you getting on? Thanks for taking the  time to read this note. from the frozen north, MI. richie

Response:

i’ll answer from here. i man 46 years old. has had AS since a young teen or earlier! Kathy Have a nice day!

Response:

I have AS I’m  46 years old (Male)  and as a youngster At 9 or 10  II was diagnosed with RA, not until I was mid 30’s did they find out it was AS. I was on Prednisone for 11 years!     Now I am paying the consequenses.  I have awful back pain deteriated hips , 2 shoulder surgerys, bad knees and most recently been diagnosed with crones disease ( which I feel is related to all the drugs I’ve taken and continue to take)  and I have been switching Medicines every 4-6 weeks to try and find some relief from the pain.       I  am having trouble standing on my feet and after sitting even short periods I can hardly walk.     I try and keep up a pleasant front but my wife gets the brunt of my pent up pain.    If I’m not sleeping from the drugs I’m miserable.   I want to move to Arizona where it’s dry and see if this will help some. Kathy Have a nice day!

Response:

I was just wondering how many folks out here, have A.S.  How are you getting on? Thanks for taking the  time to read this note. from the frozen north, MI. richie

As the expression goes "You are not alone"  and I don’t mean little green men – frozen north, MI – thats the balmy south at least compared to North Bay, Ontario.  Well I guess that depends on where you are in the state, you seem to get some pretty evil weather there too.  But spring is on its way and I can actually see a little open water around the shore of Lake Nipissing. How am I getting on….That depends on the day, the hour etc. but generally pretty good, thinking about getting the second hip done,  but its not too bad and I think I’ll keep with the OEM parts as long as I can. Harv

Response: